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2017 Cars
03-09-2017, 08:07 AM
Post: #26
RE: 2017 Cars
Yeah. He's less PC in some of the Spanish news reports.
For once I actually feel sorry for him.

Mainly, of course, for having to drive a car with such sh1t livery - what a wasted opportunity!
[Image: orangemclaren2.png]

Anyway, at least RBR/Ferrari/Williams might be providing some characterful entertainment at the shoulder of the spear.

Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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03-09-2017, 10:27 AM
Post: #27
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-08-2017 04:55 AM)drmarkf Wrote:  Some informed opinion has it that Ferrari are heavily sandbagging.

Presumably we can expect Toto's appeal to Charlie for a technical ruling in around 2 weeks time...

If they win a few races and he follows form from Christian Horner, he should also complain that it's bad for the sport if one team is dominant.

Will we appreciate the return of the finger this time round?!
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03-09-2017, 01:57 PM
Post: #28
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-09-2017 10:27 AM)chemics Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 04:55 AM)drmarkf Wrote:  Some informed opinion has it that Ferrari are heavily sandbagging.

Presumably we can expect Toto's appeal to Charlie for a technical ruling in around 2 weeks time...

If they win a few races and he follows form from Christian Horner, he should also complain that it's bad for the sport if one team is dominant.

Will we appreciate the return of the finger this time round?!

Just so long as LewHam/Kimi/Daniel/Max are giving it to him regularly, and maybe even VB later in the season, I'm happy to cope.

Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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03-10-2017, 07:08 AM
Post: #29
RE: 2017 Cars
The colour scheme of the Honda is terrible - made even worse by the shark fin.
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03-10-2017, 12:22 PM
Post: #30
RE: 2017 Cars
https://hasmclarenbrokendown.com/

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03-10-2017, 12:34 PM
Post: #31
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-10-2017 12:22 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  https://hasmclarenbrokendown.com/

The admin on that page is looking at a busy year!
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03-10-2017, 05:38 PM
Post: #32
RE: 2017 Cars
The biggest question of 2017 will be "Will Fernado replace Valteri at Mercedes in 2018"

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03-12-2017, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2017 08:34 AM by drmarkf.)
Post: #33
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-10-2017 05:38 PM)leonbray Wrote:  The biggest question of 2017 will be "Will Fernado replace Valteri at Mercedes in 2018"

That would be fun.
It might be even more fun, since for the past 2 seasons the insider view at Woking has been that 2018 is going to be the first season the McHonda's not going to suck...

Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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03-13-2017, 09:03 AM
Post: #34
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-12-2017 08:34 AM)drmarkf Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 05:38 PM)leonbray Wrote:  The biggest question of 2017 will be "Will Fernado replace Valteri at Mercedes in 2018"

That would be fun.
It might be even more fun, since for the past 2 seasons the insider view at Woking has been that 2018 is going to be the first season the McHonda's not going to suck...

I'd be interested to know how they have any idea of that given the rules have changed since 2 years ago and I don't believe they were planned that far in advance. It seems like Honda is incapable of making a decent engine at present, so perhaps McLaren have a forward contract for something else in 2018!
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03-14-2017, 07:44 AM
Post: #35
RE: 2017 Cars
You have to assume Honda will get their act together soon - they have $ and clearly engineering expertise - it may not have shown up in the car yet - but perhaps we will see an improvement this year.
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03-14-2017, 08:11 AM
Post: #36
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-14-2017 07:44 AM)Koala Wrote:  You have to assume Honda will get their act together soon - they have $ and clearly engineering expertise - it may not have shown up in the car yet - but perhaps we will see an improvement this year.

I wouldn't bet on it, Toyota had money and expertise and that didn't work out particularly well. You'd think 3 years would be enough for Honda to at least be somewhat competitive and reliable, but it looks like they built another boat anchor.
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03-14-2017, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2017 08:32 AM by Koala.)
Post: #37
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-14-2017 08:11 AM)chemics Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 07:44 AM)Koala Wrote:  You have to assume Honda will get their act together soon - they have $ and clearly engineering expertise - it may not have shown up in the car yet - but perhaps we will see an improvement this year.

I wouldn't bet on it, Toyota had money and expertise and that didn't work out particularly well. You'd think 3 years would be enough for Honda to at least be somewhat competitive and reliable, but it looks like they built another boat anchor.

Totally acknowledge the Toyota experience - but Honda have been successful in F1 in the past which in my book counts for something.

We need manufacturers in F1 - hopefully things will improve for them this year
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03-14-2017, 08:42 AM
Post: #38
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-14-2017 08:31 AM)Koala Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 08:11 AM)chemics Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 07:44 AM)Koala Wrote:  You have to assume Honda will get their act together soon - they have $ and clearly engineering expertise - it may not have shown up in the car yet - but perhaps we will see an improvement this year.

I wouldn't bet on it, Toyota had money and expertise and that didn't work out particularly well. You'd think 3 years would be enough for Honda to at least be somewhat competitive and reliable, but it looks like they built another boat anchor.

Totally acknowledge the Toyota experience - but Honda have been successful in F1 in the past which in my book counts for something.

We need manufacturers in F1 - hopefully things will improve for them this year

I hope so too, it's been a surprise that they haven't improved sooner and the lack of success has to be a deterrent to anyone else thinking of joining. I do wonder how long McLaren can tolerate being at the back due to a poor power unit if they believe their chassis is up to par. Although I'm not sure they have much in the way of better options at this point.
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03-15-2017, 06:31 AM
Post: #39
RE: 2017 Cars
>> You'd think 3 years would be enough for Honda to at least be somewhat competitive and reliable, but it looks like they built another boat anchor... <<

>> ...it's been a surprise that they haven't improved sooner... <<

May I respectfully remind the honourable gentlemen of the experience of RBR, who didn't win a race until their fifth season after their purchase of Jaguar?

Now, I'm not going to suggest that the situations are closely similar in all regards, but there wasn't a massive change in technical basis of the power system in the mid-2000's, as far as I remember!

I'm just pointing out that people shouldn't be surprised that it takes half a decade to reach the top. This does, of course, illustrate the fantastic achievements of Mercedes in hitting the ground running with their new power unit (and I'd also point to the facts that Ferrari and Renault are only now probably catching up).

Most sports are characterised by ridiculously inflated claims and unachievable aims, and a heap of broken dreams.

;-)

Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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03-15-2017, 08:39 AM
Post: #40
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-15-2017 06:31 AM)drmarkf Wrote:  >> You'd think 3 years would be enough for Honda to at least be somewhat competitive and reliable, but it looks like they built another boat anchor... <<

>> ...it's been a surprise that they haven't improved sooner... <<

May I respectfully remind the honourable gentlemen of the experience of RBR, who didn't win a race until their fifth season after their purchase of Jaguar?

Now, I'm not going to suggest that the situations are closely similar in all regards, but there wasn't a massive change in technical basis of the power system in the mid-2000's, as far as I remember!

I'm just pointing out that people shouldn't be surprised that it takes half a decade to reach the top. This does, of course, illustrate the fantastic achievements of Mercedes in hitting the ground running with their new power unit (and I'd also point to the facts that Ferrari and Renault are only now probably catching up).

Most sports are characterised by ridiculously inflated claims and unachievable aims, and a heap of broken dreams.

;-)

True, perhaps as fans we just have unreasonable expectations.

I don't know if the Red Bull situation is comparable to McLaren, that was putting an entire development team in place, which McLaren already have. Has there been other new engine suppliers coming in that would be comparable? I guess even if there has been it's a different situation with the new power units. In Honda's case they spent a significant amount of time up front doing development before becoming bound by the token rules for development and this seasons new rules were supposedly meant to favour them catching up. Although when has an F1 rule change ever had the intended consequences?!

I don't think I expected Honda to suddenly have the best engine, they just seem so far off still. I had expected by now that they would be moving into the phase of chasing more marginal gains to get to the front, rather than being significantly down on power to everyone else and horribly unreliable. Perhaps in light of the poor effort at a livery McLaren came up with they decided adding flames would make the car more spectacular Smile
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03-15-2017, 03:46 PM
Post: #41
RE: 2017 Cars
Can anyone recall whether Honda's recent history of engine production is good?

I vaguely remember them having good V10's. The V8 was relatively underpowered.

And they had a reputation for going 'bang'?





So what I am saying, is..........

Should we really expect Honda to produce good engines?

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03-15-2017, 04:10 PM
Post: #42
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-15-2017 03:46 PM)trickydicky Wrote:  Can anyone recall whether Honda's recent history of engine production is good?

I vaguely remember them having good V10's. The V8 was relatively underpowered.

And they had a reputation for going 'bang'?

So what I am saying, is..........

Should we really expect Honda to produce good engines?

I think we should, whilst not the same sport they have been at the front in MotoGP for years and have massive resources at their disposal, it's not like going racing is something new to them.

Perhaps this is a reflection of how complicated the current power units are. Whilst I like the technology aspect of the current rules it shouldn't be so prohibitive that it will deter new entrants and I think Honda's struggles could be doing that...or maybe they just screwed up. It would be interesting to see if someone else enters so we have a comparison, everyone else has been here since the start of the Hybrids.

I'd really like to see a top flight WEC manufacturer come in that has plenty of experience in hybrid power trains to draw from.
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03-15-2017, 11:01 PM
Post: #43
RE: 2017 Cars
audi's top motorsport people are looking for a project, right?

the problem is whether a group that was used to the technological diversity and development of le mans would want to squeeze themselves into the tiny beige box of f1 engine supply? that's a big step down in terms of having an interesting task.
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03-15-2017, 11:35 PM
Post: #44
RE: 2017 Cars
So who builds the winning engines in Indy Car series?

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03-16-2017, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2017 09:09 AM by chemics.)
Post: #45
RE: 2017 Cars
(03-15-2017 11:35 PM)leonbray Wrote:  So who builds the winning engines in Indy Car series?

Engines are easy compared to F1 power units with the multiple integrated systems. If all Honda had to do was build a V8 I expect they would be closer to the rest by now.

They did manage 2nd in last years INDYCAR manufacturers championship though...

(03-15-2017 11:01 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  audi's top motorsport people are looking for a project, right?

the problem is whether a group that was used to the technological diversity and development of le mans would want to squeeze themselves into the tiny beige box of f1 engine supply? that's a big step down in terms of having an interesting task.

I wonder if Dieselgate had more to do with VAG's decision to not enter F1 than anything else. I think I read that they had considered it not so long ago. Fines in the billions have an unfortunate effect on discretionary spending.
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03-17-2017, 04:04 AM
Post: #46
RE: 2017 Cars
Interesting analysis: https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/03/m...ens-shoes/

Don't bother reading the comments from the usual collection of self-elected armchair multinational CEOs, but the article does list the available options and many of the associated pros and cons. Personally I anticipate they're most likely to stick, suck it up and probably lose Fernando (since there will be other drivers available) but it ain't going to be pretty or cheerful.

Regards,
Mark

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[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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04-02-2017, 05:31 AM
Post: #47
RE: 2017 Cars
Interesting technical articl by Craig Scarborough

https://drivetribe.com/p/auZby7jDQhuGAz6...ce=organic

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