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Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
12-01-2015, 06:48 PM
Post: #1
Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
Guess it had to happen. A racing series without any drivers


http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/30/ready...-roborace/

Quote:Roborace will take drivers out of motorsports next year by bringing autonomous electric vehicles to the track as a support series for the FIA Formula E Championship's 2016-2017 season. The driverless racecars will attempt to push the development of the cutting-edge tech through competition, and spectators will be able to check them out in cities around the world.


Wonder if we can get some of the boffins out of F1 and get back to a series where the driver is more important than the engineer and strategist

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12-01-2015, 07:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 07:18 PM by Yaaay.)
Post: #2
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-01-2015 06:48 PM)leonbray Wrote:  Wonder if we can get some of the boffins out of F1 and get back to a series where the driver is more important than the engineer and strategist

F1 was never ever this. This only exists in Karts and then there are better dads at setting up karts.

Drivers are highly overrated.

You want closer racing, this only happens in success ballasted formulae. BTCC do this very well indeed. They also have a mix of reverse grid which works.

Seriously, I would get rid of all the DRS nonsense, equivalence engine rules, aero regulations, wind tunnel limitations and pit lane curfews.

Just have success ballast.

Everyone can understand it and it will naturally limit silly developments and at the same time keep on track competition alive.

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12-01-2015, 08:07 PM
Post: #3
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-01-2015 07:09 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 06:48 PM)leonbray Wrote:  Wonder if we can get some of the boffins out of F1 and get back to a series where the driver is more important than the engineer and strategist

F1 was never ever this. This only exists in Karts and then there are better dads at setting up karts.

Drivers are highly overrated.

yes. let's take off the rose-tinted glasses and realize that the only reason f1 seemed so much simpler when we were younger was because our understanding of it was so much simpler.

(12-01-2015 07:09 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  Seriously, I would get rid of all the DRS nonsense, equivalence engine rules, aero regulations, wind tunnel limitations and pit lane curfews.

Just have success ballast.

Everyone can understand it and it will naturally limit silly developments and at the same time keep on track competition alive.

have you tried sports cars? i realized a few years ago that every complaint i had against f1 was answered by sports cars.
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12-01-2015, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2015 10:53 PM by leonbray.)
Post: #4
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-01-2015 07:09 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 06:48 PM)leonbray Wrote:  Wonder if we can get some of the boffins out of F1 and get back to a series where the driver is more important than the engineer and strategist

F1 was never ever this. This only exists in Karts and then there are better dads at setting up karts.

...

In F1 I'd like to get back to the situation where the driver and engineer spend three days setting up the car (including Sunday morning session) and then the driver goes racing, without the pit wall chit chat from the engineer and strategist.

In the race let the driver work out what settings to use, how much fuel to use and when to switch tyres. Provide them with the information they need, just not the directions on settings and how to drive

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12-02-2015, 12:34 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 12:36 AM by Neonzapper.)
Post: #5
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
Who needs driver skill when we can have the International Race Of Constructors? Audi and BMW have driverless race track cars and Google has driverless street cars. Production cars self parallel park and self brake in traffic. Computers can supposedly calculate the best possible attack of a track for the car to win.

If they decide to do this, they may get fanless grandstands to watch.
(best watched in soundless)



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12-02-2015, 12:35 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 12:40 AM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #6
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-01-2015 10:52 PM)leonbray Wrote:  In F1 I'd like to get back to the situation where the driver and engineer spend three days setting up the car (including Sunday morning session) and then the driver goes racing, without the pit wall chit chat from the engineer and strategist.

In the race let the driver work out what settings to use, how much fuel to use and when to switch tyres. Provide them with the information they need, just not the directions on settings and how to drive

we're still talking about going BACK to a situation that has never existed before. before telemetry and radios, it was the team calling in the drivers with their big boards they'd hold up on the side of the track, the drivers giving information to the team, and the teams deciding on setup changes.

driver contribution has gone up over time. these days, drivers can tweak settings with the dozen or so knobs on their steering wheels. back in the day, they needed the mechanics to pull out the hood pins and do it with a wrench. the telemetry does help the mechanics by not requiring them to decipher the driver's reporting of the problem, but there was always the team between the driver and the setup.

(12-02-2015 12:34 AM)Neonzapper Wrote:  If they decide to do this, they may get fanless grandstands to watch.

another idea that's long overdue. broadcasts passed live attendance in value long ago, so why not up the profit margin by cutting out all the costs of bringing thousands of random people to the event?
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12-02-2015, 12:46 AM
Post: #7
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-02-2015 12:35 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  ...back in the day, they needed the mechanics to pull out the hood pins and do it with a wrench. the telemetry does help the mechanics by not requiring them to decipher the driver's reporting of the problem, but there was always the team between the driver and the setup.




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12-02-2015, 02:12 AM
Post: #8
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
foyt is certainly not a representative example of racing drivers, and that stop isn't a very competitive one. i'd also point out that we're talking about f1, not the indy 500.

but mostly i want to address the difference between anecdote and data. i certainly don't think that if fernando alonso, during one pit stop next season, helped work on the car, that leonbray would be satisfied and no longer wish drivers did more. he's talking about a trend, and i'm talking about a trend, and you're showing a snapshot in time as if it's significant.

and a lot of the previous paragraph is you taking the heat for all the people in the world that do this. don't think i'm attacking you if, as i suspect, you offered that because it was funny and you were reminded of it rather than because you actually think it disproves the point. i just don't have the opportunity to throw a senator's snowball back in his face, so i'm displacing a bit.
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12-02-2015, 02:51 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 02:53 AM by leonbray.)
Post: #9
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-02-2015 12:35 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 10:52 PM)leonbray Wrote:  In F1 I'd like to get back to the situation where the driver and engineer spend three days setting up the car (including Sunday morning session) and then the driver goes racing, without the pit wall chit chat from the engineer and strategist.

In the race let the driver work out what settings to use, how much fuel to use and when to switch tyres. Provide them with the information they need, just not the directions on settings and how to drive

we're still talking about going BACK to a situation that has never existed before. before telemetry and radios, it was the team calling in the drivers with their big boards they'd hold up on the side of the track, the drivers giving information to the team, and the teams deciding on setup changes.

driver contribution has gone up over time. these days, drivers can tweak settings with the dozen or so knobs on their steering wheels. back in the day, they needed the mechanics to pull out the hood pins and do it with a wrench. the telemetry does help the mechanics by not requiring them to decipher the driver's reporting of the problem, but there was always the team between the driver and the setup.



In the olden days - the driver made the call when to come in for tyres, how fast he had to drive to save fuel, what roll bar settings he changed, what brake bias he ran .... because the engineers didn't have that information available to them, and when they did, they were not allowed to provide setting information to the driver, only status information.

Yes, today the driver has more things he can play with, but the engineers and strategists tell them what brake bias to run, what engine map to use, when to come in for tyres .... these settings should be left to the driver once the race has started. Sure - provide the status data on the in car screen for the driver to make decisions but a third party should not be able to provide instructions to the driver about settings, once the race has started.

If the driver spends so much time with the engineer during set up, they should have the knowledge to make adjustments to the car to vary its performance based on the circumstances

Once the engineers are finished with set-up prior to the race, I want to see who really is the best driver

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12-02-2015, 03:38 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 03:42 AM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #10
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-02-2015 02:51 AM)leonbray Wrote:  Once the engineers are finished with set-up prior to the race, I want to see who really is the best driver

then go find a spec series. f1 is never going to give you that. it never has. there are plenty of series that will, though. might i suggest the porsche supercup, as a very good example.

(12-02-2015 02:51 AM)leonbray Wrote:  In the olden days - the driver made the call when to come in for tyres, how fast he had to drive to save fuel, what roll bar settings he changed, what brake bias he ran .... because the engineers didn't have that information available to them, and when they did, they were not allowed to provide setting information to the driver, only status information.

can you put a year on that? because i really think you're conjuring that out of some faulty memories. all the old footage i've seen had teams holding up signs that said "PIT" on them, and then the driver pitted. why do you think those signs exist? why do the team personnel have stop watches and clipboards full of lap times, if all that was happening inside the driver's helmet?
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12-02-2015, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 08:24 AM by leonbray.)
Post: #11
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
there has always been pit signals, including the one that says pit when you have a trail of oil pouring out your exhaust.

The 70's, 80's and 90's F1 races were not a spec series and after the start of the race. the drivers were effectively in charge of assessing the condition of the car and determining their strategy - as illustrated by the tyre blow ups from Mansell and others when they were in commanding positions but chose to continue on suspect tyres. When refuelling was in vogue the pit wall would make the call on the best time to refuel, but they didn't tell the driver what roll bar settings etc, to use. It was up to the driver to make the call as the fuel load changed

There will always be an exception that can be used to present a counter argument ... I am expressing my opinion that I would like to see less pit wall involvement during the race and a greater reliance on the skill of the driver and on his decision making ability.

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12-02-2015, 02:50 PM
Post: #12
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-02-2015 08:21 AM)leonbray Wrote:  I would like to see less pit wall involvement during the race and a greater reliance on the skill of the driver and on his decision making ability.

that makes a lot more sense to me. i'm not sure i agree, but i can understand the desire. there's a big leap between "more reliance on the driver" and "determine who is the best driver." unless it's a truly spec series, the winner isn't going to be determined by the driver. unless the team is owned or run by the driver, the driver isn't going to be the main decision maker. but if you want to tweak the driver's importance from 20% responsibility to 30%, that seems doable.
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12-03-2015, 12:17 AM
Post: #13
RE: Formula E introduce Autonomous Racing Series
(12-02-2015 02:12 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  ...if, as i suspect, you offered that because it was funny and you were reminded of it
Yep.

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