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Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
03-17-2014, 10:31 AM
Post: #1
Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/03/17/quie...-friction/




Quieter F1 cars cause contract friction

Monday 17th March, 2014 5:04pm
Author: SpeedCafe ©
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F1 2014 AGP Melbourne 344x226 Quieter F1 cars cause contract friction

Disharmony has broken out within the Australian Grand Prix Corporation over the flat sound of the new age F1 cars

The furore over the quieter, duller exhaust notes from the new-for-2014 F1 cars has triggered unrest at official levels.

According to reports in Fairfax media, Melbourne Grand Prix chairman Ron Walker has already voiced displeasure to the sport’s ringmaster Bernie Ecclestone who remained in the United Kingdom for the season-opening race at Albert Park.

There is discontent within the Australian Grand Prix corporation with concerns that the F1 troops did not deliver on the terms of their contract.

Those within the sport, paying spectators and television viewers universally castigated the sound of the new cars.

Speedcafe.com did its own sound comparison at the weekend, highlighting the unrest among fans, many of whom, said the move away from the high-pitched screaming V8 engine was a step backwards.

“One aspect of it was just a little bit duller than it’s ever been before and that’s part of the mix and the chemistry that they’re going to have to get right,” AGP chief executive Andrew Westacott said.

“Ron spoke to (Ecclestone) after the race and said the fans don’t like it in the venue.

“We pay for a product, we’ve got contracts in place, we are looking at those very, very seriously because we reckon there has probably been some breaches.”

Not bad for a No. 2 Driver
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03-17-2014, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 11:11 AM by chemics.)
Post: #2
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
Can we please stop making the noise such a big issue. They sounded OK to me on the TV and I saw plenty of younger Journalists on Twitter commenting that they sounded OK and much better at the track than on the TV feeds. This is starting to sound like the old boys complaining that it doesn't make their ears bleed like the good old days so it must be bad.

They aren't going to make them louder, the energy that made the noise is being harvested in the ERS to make the cars faster and more efficient, it's not coming back. It didn't ruin or destroy LeMans when it went away with the Diesels and it won't ruin F1.

I see they are in the process of trying to get a new 2 year deal for 2016/17, this seems like a really bad negotiation tactic to try with Bernie unless he's got another agenda around the noise he's working himself. Otherwise he's just take his race elsewhere, there are plenty of other places happy to pay his fees.
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03-17-2014, 11:36 AM
Post: #3
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
I suspect they need to change the sound pickup locations and setup for TV. The internal mic in-car shots sound pretty good. I do like hearing the turbo sounds and the tire sounds when they get out of shape.

I like the sound of the Ferrari best, while the Mercedes sounds the least IMO. Interesting though that the Merc sounded better in Bottas' car because he seemed to be turning higher revs.

It will be nice to attend a race and be able to not need earplugs the entire time. And hey - you'll be able to hear the track announcer!

Agreed it's a negotiation tactic - and one that will probably fail. Any damage done by the lower noise is made up for by having Ricciardo on the podium - even if it did get taken away. That will only drive even more media attention and coverage!

Lephturn

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03-17-2014, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 11:53 AM by chemics.)
Post: #4
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 11:36 AM)Lephturn Wrote:  I suspect they need to change the sound pickup locations and setup for TV. The internal mic in-car shots sound pretty good.

Martin Brundle said much the same on Twitter.

(03-17-2014 11:36 AM)Lephturn Wrote:  I like the sound of the Ferrari best, while the Mercedes sounds the least IMO. Interesting though that the Merc sounded better in Bottas' car because he seemed to be turning higher revs.

I wonder if the least appealing sound equates to the most efficient use of the ERS as they are capturing more of that energy.

I think the revs come from the ratios they picked for the gearbox, which are fixed for the season. Either that or how they choose to use the torque. I assume they will run higher revs at some tracks though or the 15,000 limit seems a little pointless when most seemed to be changing at less than 12,000 from the comments I saw. We could do with more graphics to see things like this.
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03-17-2014, 12:04 PM
Post: #5
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
Hogwash.

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03-17-2014, 01:24 PM
Post: #6
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
http://youtu.be/KUg5UTC3x3A?t=10s

who do i threaten to sue over the noise caused by everyone whinging about the noise? i'm honestly gobsmacked that this is the battle people pick.
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03-17-2014, 01:44 PM
Post: #7
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
It's all relative...five years from now- when they go to 4 cylinders, the F1 fans will miss these 6 cylinder engines.

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03-17-2014, 02:07 PM
Post: #8
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
I must be biased as I think these things sound better and reports are you won't near ear protection to spectate. This must be a good thing?

I heard that the whine of the turbos more than makes up for Paul di-Resta's absence.

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03-17-2014, 02:20 PM
Post: #9
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
OK, here is an old timer venting just a bit. Note the article at the top said "Those within the sport, paying spectators and television viewers universally castigated the sound of the new cars." That seems to encompass everyone.

As for me... the joy of F1 was the screaming engines along with the racing. Visible on-the-edge technology, audible high rpm and visible driving skills.

What Formula 1 has turned into is a race of management rather than racers. Watching the race, I cannot see the ERS... I cannot see the 100kg/hour fuel rate... I can see, but despise the DRS. This is NOT Formula One anymore. It is turning into a joke. They espouse saving money, huh? Well, how much has been spent designing these new engines? How much of last year's car has been carried over? Not much. Look at all the artificial limits on testing, CFD, wind tunnels, etc. This isn't racing.. it is a bureaucratic mess!

Keep the safety improvements and rules, but it is time to go back to V8s to V12s, flat bottoms, and minimal electronics. I know... it won't happen because that is just old people's talk. Well.. as I said I am an old-timer.

Might as well go watch Nascar.

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03-17-2014, 02:33 PM
Post: #10
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
you can't have on-the-edge technology and driving skills. they contradict each other, more so in short races.
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03-17-2014, 02:38 PM
Post: #11
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 02:20 PM)monzagorilla Wrote:  OK, here is an old timer venting just a bit. Note the article at the top said "Those within the sport, paying spectators and television viewers universally castigated the sound of the new cars." That seems to encompass everyone.

As for me... the joy of F1 was the screaming engines along with the racing. Visible on-the-edge technology, audible high rpm and visible driving skills.

What Formula 1 has turned into is a race of management rather than racers. Watching the race, I cannot see the ERS... I cannot see the 100kg/hour fuel rate... I can see, but despise the DRS. This is NOT Formula One anymore. It is turning into a joke. They espouse saving money, huh? Well, how much has been spent designing these new engines? How much of last year's car has been carried over? Not much. Look at all the artificial limits on testing, CFD, wind tunnels, etc. This isn't racing.. it is a bureaucratic mess!

Keep the safety improvements and rules, but it is time to go back to V8s to V12s, flat bottoms, and minimal electronics. I know... it won't happen because that is just old people's talk. Well.. as I said I am an old-timer.

Might as well go watch Nascar.

You can see ERS and the new engine technology, every time the car goes sideways under acceleration from the huge increases in torque. This year is the most visibility of driver skill we've seen in years.

I don't know if the new technology was supposed to make things cheaper, but it does make F1 relevant. Energy recovery is the reality of automotove technology and F1 needs to have it to be relevant. Arguably it should have had more of it years ago before it was commonplace on road cars.

The article says the noise was universally castigated, well that's rubbish, it's not even close to universally castigated within our small forum, I doubt it would have been universal at the track given the attendance. Those that are happy with the noise didn't shout about it, so the detractors get the headlines.

Maybe the problem is the old guys can't hear the new cars because after years of V12/10/8's they are partially deaf Smile
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03-17-2014, 03:00 PM
Post: #12
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
f1 is way behind le mans in terms of energy efficiency. le mans uses much more energy recovery. also they use much more efficient turbos. also they let teams run the output of their recovered energy through the front wheels, making the cars temporarily all wheel drive, meaning they efficiently put that energy to the road rather than using it to squirm about. it's not energy efficient to spend the energy on challenging the drivers instead of propelling the cars.

(03-17-2014 02:38 PM)chemics Wrote:  Maybe the problem is the old guys can't hear the new cars because after years of V12/10/8's they are partially deaf Smile

ha! i like this theory.
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03-17-2014, 04:09 PM
Post: #13
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 02:07 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  I heard that the whine of the turbos more than makes up for Paul di-Resta's absence.

Made me chuckle.

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03-17-2014, 06:06 PM
Post: #14
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"



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03-17-2014, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 06:50 PM by Miguel.)
Post: #15
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
Yes, it's smaller. Come to grips with it and move on.

This is getting to look like penile insecurity.

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03-17-2014, 07:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 07:17 PM by leonbray.)
Post: #16
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
I watched most of the races over the weekend and the V8Supercars sound better than the F1 on TV - and the V8's run mufflers. On TV the F1s sound like F3 cars

The show has certainly been diminished, which is exacerbated by the lack of technical information being displayed and the lack of sector times on the live timing.

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03-17-2014, 07:43 PM
Post: #17
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 07:13 PM)leonbray Wrote:  ...the lack of technical information being displayed and the lack of sector times on the live timing.

These are available on the 'official' F1 app - for the sum of 7.5 of our UK pounds for the season. Presumably this is being done as an income generating exercise.

Regards,
Mark

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03-17-2014, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 08:44 PM by monzagorilla.)
Post: #18
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
Yaay - you made my point. Hell, my kart makes a better sound that the 2014 cars!

Look at the cars in the 1970s and 1980s before the traction control garbage showed up. Plenty of sideways sliding and driver control needed!

"Maybe the problem is the old guys can't hear the new cars because after years of V12/10/8's they are partially deaf Wink"

Well, that could have an element of truth. I got blasted at Montreal walking up the steps (right next to the armco) just after the hairpin as practice started (around 2000 or so). No ear protection... Wow.. that was LOUD!

Tough to find pure sound from the earlier days... the advent of high quality recording and broadcasts is somewhat recent. Here's some:




Sorry... one of Formula 1's distinguishing characteristics is missing.

Energy efficient? Hey this is motor racing. It should wallow in excess. You want to see energy efficient racing? Stop by Watkins Glen April 11 for the Green Grand Prix. It even features wood-burning cars. Let's see how wood ash works in your blown exhaust! Big Grin

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03-17-2014, 09:07 PM
Post: #19
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 08:28 PM)monzagorilla Wrote:  Sorry... one of Formula 1's distinguishing characteristics is missing.

Energy efficient? Hey this is motor racing. It should wallow in excess.

*checks user profile for age* yep, thought so. Big Grin
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03-17-2014, 11:53 PM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2014 11:57 PM by trickydicky.)
Post: #20
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
The noise of Formula one was certainly a distinguishing factor but also not something that made me tune into F1. Its a added bonus. Are you seriously telling me that thrilling action on the F1 tack is curtailed by engine noise? 90% of F1 viewers have never been to a Formula one track on race day. I doubt they give a toss. I reckon a lot of people giving perceptions on noise have never been to a F1 race. Yes its great if you are there - but the point is very few people are

On the TV I couldn't give a toss what noise is coming out. This is a generational thing where some people seem reluctant to move on. Do you think my children will care what noise comes out of an F1 car relative to 1991? I'm sure most people on this forum now drive relatively new cars that don't make much of a noise. Noisy engines isn't relevant and in the future wont be indicative of performance credentials.

F1 needs to be relevant. At the moment it just seems like the old boys club are making a fuss over nothing.

I think the new engines is a really positive step for F1. It sends all the right messages out about Formula one

The maximum power of the new Power Unit will exceed the output of
current V8 F1 engines however fuel efficiency will be radically improved.
With only 100kg permitted for the race, the new units will use 35% less
fuel than their predecessors.


I don't know about the rest of the world but in Europe there was massive drive to being environmentally friendly before the economic turndown. Now things are picking up again it will return to the political mainstream. Commercial organisations will not want to be associated with a relic of the past. F1 is a business as much as it is a sport. If you don't like that go watch banger racing.

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03-18-2014, 12:35 AM
Post: #21
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
well said, tricky.

to me, more performance and less noise is a win-win, but even if you like noise, i'm shocked that people value it over performance. and like you said, energy efficiency is necessary to stay alive going into the future.
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03-18-2014, 06:29 AM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2014 06:42 AM by leonbray.)
Post: #22
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-17-2014 11:53 PM)trickydicky Wrote:  The noise of Formula one was certainly a distinguishing factor but also not something that made me tune into F1. Its a added bonus. Are you seriously telling me that thrilling action on the F1 tack is curtailed by engine noise? 90% of F1 viewers have never been to a Formula one track on race day. I doubt they give a toss. I reckon a lot of people giving perceptions on noise have never been to a F1 race. Yes its great if you are there - but the point is very few people are

On the TV I couldn't give a toss what noise is coming out. This is a generational thing where some people seem reluctant to move on. Do you think my children will care what noise comes out of an F1 car relative to 1991? I'm sure most people on this forum now drive relatively new cars that don't make much of a noise. Noisy engines isn't relevant and in the future wont be indicative of performance credentials.

F1 needs to be relevant. At the moment it just seems like the old boys club are making a fuss over nothing.

I think the new engines is a really positive step for F1. It sends all the right messages out about Formula one

The maximum power of the new Power Unit will exceed the output of
current V8 F1 engines however fuel efficiency will be radically improved.
With only 100kg permitted for the race, the new units will use 35% less
fuel than their predecessors.


I don't know about the rest of the world but in Europe there was massive drive to being environmentally friendly before the economic turndown. Now things are picking up again it will return to the political mainstream. Commercial organisations will not want to be associated with a relic of the past. F1 is a business as much as it is a sport. If you don't like that go watch banger racing.


I will be - the local Trans-am racing has closer racing, makes better sound and I get to make noise in my race car turned street cruiser. In most racing series, except formula V, you can hear the engines working and the sound is commensurate with the racing that is going on i.e it is loud enough that when two or more cars are in close proximity you can tell they are working

I have been attending formula racing events since the tasman series in the 60's and, while I found the V10s and V8 noise levels hard to take at the track, it sounded like the cars were racing - the sound made by the current cars do not convey that sense of "urgency" that makes the racing intense

While the technical regulations have moved on and the safety has been significantly improved, the aural experience does not compare to hearing Ferrari, Matra, Cosworth, and Alfa engines at full song or even the differenct sounds of the V10s

BTW - I am not living in the past, I like the new technology and the opportunities it affords, but the lack of even simple visual aids for the audience and the dull sound of the engines has not advanced the spectacle

... but the information must be available because the FIA have access to it to monitor the cars. We just need to implement it for the TV audience and get rid of the tuner car exhaust sound - note sound not noise

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03-18-2014, 06:37 AM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2014 06:37 AM by drmarkf.)
Post: #23
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
I agree with TD, speaking as someone who really enjoys the sound of classic engines.

Reducing noise is seen by many as a green aim as well (and it might actually benefit re-use of some classic tracks which are close to residential areas).

Also, it's relatively easy and extremely cheap to improve the quality of the sound, even if it's not made louder - the FIA could mandate a megaphone exhaust trumpet, for example, or even run a competition in some way to benefit the team with the best sounding exhaust.

It just needs a bit of ingenuity rather than a blanket negative response. Surely F1's still got some of that? Extinction and irrelevance is the result of ignoring these moves, regardless of what we feel as enthusiasts*.

(* which, being interpreted, may mean anything from 'keepers of the flame' to 'irrelevant farty dinosaurs')

Regards,
Mark

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[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
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03-18-2014, 06:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2014 06:45 AM by leonbray.)
Post: #24
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
(03-18-2014 06:37 AM)drmarkf Wrote:  I agree with TD, speaking as someone who really enjoys the sound of classic engines.

Reducing noise is seen by many as a green aim as well (and it might actually benefit re-use of some classic tracks which are close to residential areas).

Also, it's relatively easy and extremely cheap to improve the quality of the sound, even if it's not made louder - the FIA could mandate a megaphone exhaust trumpet, for example, or even run a competition in some way to benefit the team with the best sounding exhaust.

It just needs a bit of ingenuity rather than a blanket negative response. Surely F1's still got some of that? Extinction and irrelevance is the result of ignoring these moves, regardless of what we feel as enthusiasts*.

(* which, being interpreted, may mean anything from 'keepers of the flame' to 'irrelevant farty dinosaurs')

Just square off the end of the pipe - same way you get a Japanese tuner car with a fart can to sound better. Or you could drill a line of holes in it and use poppet valves to play a different not based on the rev range

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03-18-2014, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2014 06:48 AM by drmarkf.)
Post: #25
RE: Quiet engines a "breach of contract"
OK, it's time for a gratuitous posting of one of the truly great engine noises and indubitably one of the very loudest - Jim Clark's Lotus 38 Indy car at the Goodwood Festival in 2010.

I am somewhere in the background of the first video - I had professional standard earplugs in and it was still shattering, and you can see everyone without protection trying to stop their ears bleeding.





Such things are now consigned to historical meetings, and that's probably correct (and it's another reason why Nasir needs to come to Goodwood!!!)

And here's the second...



Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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