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2014 Australian Grand Prix
03-15-2014, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 08:59 PM by trickydicky.)
Post: #26
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-15-2014 08:31 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  so if someone with the last name "smith" just up and decided one day that it was pronounced with six syllables, one of which is whistle sound, then you'd go along with that?

It's a matter of being polite Frank. Are you suggesting we ignore his personal preferences? What's more important, abiding by your rules and regulations or his personal opinion?

If you told me you preferred your name pronounced in a certain way I'd happily oblige

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03-15-2014, 09:05 PM
Post: #27
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
i believe that having a written language that corresponds to the spoken language is more important than personal preferences. and as i alluded to earlier, i have no problem with him pronouncing his name any way he likes, so long as he changes the spelling to match.

btw, politeness arguments are terribly unconvincing and often the last resort of someone who knows logic isn't on their side. there's no good reason my elbows shouldn't touch the table, so we'll just arbitrarily decide it's impolite.
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03-15-2014, 09:49 PM
Post: #28
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
in your view, personally, to your mind, as you see it.

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03-15-2014, 10:01 PM (This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 10:10 PM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #29
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
if you have a reason, i'd love to hear it.

i gave a reason for why i think it should be pronounced a certain way; a reason with ties to the objective world. we all benefit from the written and spoken languages matching up. it makes communication more efficient.

you gave me the reason of "it's a matter of being polite," which is to say no reason. because it makes me ask why that's polite. polite is just another way of saying "you should." so you said "you should because you should." there's no reason there.

i'm not throwing out politeness with the garbage. some etiquette has good reason. it's polite to avoid chewing with your mouth open because the sight of partially chewed food is considered unpleasant by most people. but you see how there's an actual reason there, rather than just saying "because politeness."

but this is what i get so often from people, and quite a bit from you personally, tricky; whenever i say something outside the conventional wisdom, people say "no, that's not how it's done... polite... tradition... blah blah blah." either there is no reason, or you've never stopped to think what the reason is, or you're just not willing to take a moment and explain. either way, i'm standing over here being reasonable (notice that root), and you're just spouting.
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03-15-2014, 11:11 PM (This post was last modified: 03-15-2014 11:11 PM by trickydicky.)
Post: #30
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
I agree disparity between the written and spoken language is unhelpful. However in this instance I would argue that personal preference trumps the linguistic etiquette. As you suggest, the concept of politeness is not simply based on logical reasoning. However, just because being politeness does not have sound reasoning behind it (like the elbows on table) does not mean we should ignore or question it. Being polite is important because it allows everybody to interact in a coherent and non controversial manner. Being polite means we can all get on with life without confrontation. That, in my view, is more important than a society which everybody rigorously analyses everything. While I agree in a perfect world your pronunciation of Ricciardo is correct,…like it or not we actually live in a environment where he gets to dictate how his own name is said. Like it or not, putting elbows on the table is considered rude……even if there is no logical reasoning behind it. Im afraid to say it will always remain rude. If you want to rebel, feel free, but people will always consider your attitude to be rude. Sometimes its logical to be un-logical - Just get on with life and accept the World you live in.

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03-16-2014, 12:00 AM
Post: #31
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
Ricciardo was born in Perth - so why not pronounce his name the way Australians and Perth Speakers interpret the letters if he is happy with that.

Frank I don't think your argument holds up - pronunciations of common words vary all over the place in the English language with lots of examples where the spelling doesn't not necessarily transfer straight to pronunciation - likewise with a lot of Anglo Saxon surnames they are pronounced differently than a strict pronunciation of the letters making them up.

This link gives a couple of examples of words pronounced differently:

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/20...n-britain/

This wikipedia page gives some more example where Americans & British speakers differ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_an...ifferences
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03-16-2014, 01:34 AM
Post: #32
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
tricky, thank you for engaging in the conversation, rather than just tut-tut-ing. i'm happy to report to you that etiquette is by no means set in stone. quite the opposite in fact, which is why dinner with the queen in buckingham (about as out of touch with modernity as i can think of) is so different than dinner at a modern gastropub. i actually chose elbows on the table because it's an example of an etiquette rule that has generally been given up. i guess we float in different circles. do you put out finger bowls for your guests?

i'm just slightly dismayed at your eagerness to roll over and accept everything. could be an age difference talking here. all this "like it or not, the world is..." the world is made of people and people can make it any which way we like. nothing is permanent, just ask the finger bowl maker. if trying to change the world for the better is rude, than polite truly lacks all virtue in my eyes.




koala, i agree that the english language is a mess, but to say that justifies being messy with it is circular reasoning. a lot of the words on that wikipedia page are there simply because they're adopted from another language and one group tends to adhere to the source language's pronunciation and the other doesn't. (as an aside, i have noticed that brits seem to favor mispronouncing words from different languages, especially french. it's rather bitter, but i digress.) it is ridiculous to say this is a coequal difference of opinion.

truth is not democratic. you can't get a bunch of people together, agree on a falsity, and have it be real. if that worked, global warming and evolution wouldn't apply in many parts of this country, but would most everywhere else in the world. you're teetering on the cliff of relativism, which is exactly why i fight this fight. george w. bush was wrong to pronounce it NOO-kyull-er. he was pronouncing it differently, it wasn't just his word for it or how the bushes like to pronounce it, he was pronouncing it incorrectly.

also, and i could be wrong about this, i find it very hard to believe that the people of perth would completely disregard the second i in ricciardo if they saw that name tabula rasa. i would think at the very least, it would form a diphthong with the a.
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03-16-2014, 02:39 AM
Post: #33
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-16-2014 01:34 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  also, and i could be wrong about this, i find it very hard to believe that the people of perth would completely disregard the second i in ricciardo if they saw that name tabula rasa. i would think at the very least, it would form a diphthong with the a.

some people of perth pronounce the "i" but the family and friends don't

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03-16-2014, 03:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2014 03:21 AM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #34
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-16-2014 02:39 AM)leonbray Wrote:  
(03-16-2014 01:34 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  also, and i could be wrong about this, i find it very hard to believe that the people of perth would completely disregard the second i in ricciardo if they saw that name tabula rasa. i would think at the very least, it would form a diphthong with the a.

some people of perth pronounce the "i" but the family and friends don't

that's not what i meant. i mean if they just encountered that letter pattern randomly. for instance, if they spotted a word spelled "bacciarpa." i don't think that the people of perth would see that and say back-ARR-pa. i don't think it's a pronunciation norm for the region, is what i'm saying. but again, i could be wrong.

meanwhile, back on topic to the race...

a forum darling punted another forum darling. how do we feel about this?
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03-16-2014, 05:45 PM
Post: #35
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
it would appear that the FIA has had as many equipment failures as the teams

- so many fuel flow sensor failures that they ran out of spares
- fly by wire rear brake failures on at least three cars (we know of Krazy and Kimi)

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03-16-2014, 06:24 PM
Post: #36
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
As I read it, the problem was not that the sensor was naff, or that too much fuel was used but they ignored proper procedure for dealing with it and they ignored requests to comply.

Stupid rule, 100kgs of fuel for the race - use it how you will, not add another limit. I do not understand that. Anyone seen a reason why?

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03-16-2014, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2014 06:38 PM by leonbray.)
Post: #37
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
Yes - they got pinged for ignoring the fuel flow calculation offset from the FIA and using there own calculation because they had shown that the FIA offset calculation was incorrect. Apparently other lesser teams who had the flow sensor fail were allowed to run without a working sensor. RBRs argument is that the FIA got it wrong, but sporting regs state that only the FIA can give permission for an alternate calculation to be used - so I guess the protest will get thrown out

Teams must not be happy that FIA supplied critical components like the rear brake actuators and flow sensors are failing.

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03-16-2014, 07:01 PM
Post: #38
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
Difficult situation, but I assume it is the same for everyone and it seems from the outside that everyone else handled it better. Nasty taste, either the FIA are being chumps or Red Bull are, well, pushing the limits (cheating).

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03-16-2014, 10:26 PM
Post: #39
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
Rules are rules.

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03-16-2014, 11:26 PM
Post: #40
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-16-2014 06:24 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  Stupid rule, 100kgs of fuel for the race - use it how you will, not add another limit. I do not understand that. Anyone seen a reason why?

time to fire up the speculometron!

because they don't want teams blazing off into the lead and then coasting? fans tend to hate this. they might see it as a way to control fuel use without the second half of the race turning into an economy run. didn't seem to work in australia, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't the goal.

because they want to ensure teams don't get risky and run out of fuel? protecting the image of the sport and what not.

because they know the teams are smarter than they are, so they make redundant rules in an effort to make subverting them more difficult or less likely?
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03-17-2014, 06:03 AM
Post: #41
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-16-2014 06:37 PM)leonbray Wrote:  Yes - they got pinged for ignoring the fuel flow calculation offset from the FIA and using there own calculation because they had shown that the FIA offset calculation was incorrect. Apparently other lesser teams who had the flow sensor fail were allowed to run without a working sensor. RBRs argument is that the FIA got it wrong, but sporting regs state that only the FIA can give permission for an alternate calculation to be used - so I guess the protest will get thrown out

Teams must not be happy that FIA supplied critical components like the rear brake actuators and flow sensors are failing.

If Red Bull can show the sensor was faulty and if other teams had a similar problem and were given an exemption then there would seem to be an argument for overturning the decision - I suppose we will have to wait and see
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03-17-2014, 08:57 AM
Post: #42
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-17-2014 06:03 AM)Koala Wrote:  If Red Bull can show the sensor was faulty and if other teams had a similar problem and were given an exemption then there would seem to be an argument for overturning the decision - I suppose we will have to wait and see

They might have a case if fudging the issue would only have affected them, but apparently Merc turned down their fuel consumption by a few percent to cover this possibility, so that wouldn't seem to be a very fair decision.

Joe Saward has been quite uncompromising about it (I doubt he'll be getting many invitations to RBR hospitality in future):

" I feel very sorry for Dan Ricciardo because I think he did an exceptional job but the team clearly tried to gain advantage and they deserved what they got. Everyone knew that the flow sensors were a bit delicate but there was no need to draw this to the attention of the public. These things happen sometimes and it would have been nicer if everyone had simply played along and not tried to exploit the situation it would have been wiser. The bottom line is that there are some who do not value the sport beyond the value it can give them and so will do anything to try to gain an advantage. Ricciardo deserved better."

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Mark

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03-17-2014, 09:34 AM
Post: #43
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-17-2014 06:03 AM)Koala Wrote:  
(03-16-2014 06:37 PM)leonbray Wrote:  Yes - they got pinged for ignoring the fuel flow calculation offset from the FIA and using there own calculation because they had shown that the FIA offset calculation was incorrect. Apparently other lesser teams who had the flow sensor fail were allowed to run without a working sensor. RBRs argument is that the FIA got it wrong, but sporting regs state that only the FIA can give permission for an alternate calculation to be used - so I guess the protest will get thrown out

Teams must not be happy that FIA supplied critical components like the rear brake actuators and flow sensors are failing.

If Red Bull can show the sensor was faulty and if other teams had a similar problem and were given an exemption then there would seem to be an argument for overturning the decision - I suppose we will have to wait and see

I think the biggest problem is that even if Red Bull's method was better, they should have complied with the FIA and argued about it for the future later. Being told you're breaking the rules and need to do something to stop, then completely ignoring it, is just stupid. It sounds like they were given ample opportunity to comply during the race and chose not to.
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03-17-2014, 01:31 PM
Post: #44
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
i'm afraid leonbray and koala are having trouble seeing this issue through a cloud of nationalism. i share saward's lack of sympathy for a team that was given a method to bring their faulty equipment back into compliance and willfully chose to not do so. though i don't share his naive view that pushing the limits of the rules is disrespectful to the grand entity of formula 1.
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03-17-2014, 02:06 PM
Post: #45
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
If the FIA gets it wrong, they are still right...ignoring the FIA, because they (the FIA) got it wrong is like ignoring a Judge's ruling in court- because he (the Judge) got it wrong. Guess what? You lose.

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03-17-2014, 07:26 PM
Post: #46
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
with all the focus on the fuel sensor, at least the heat is off the other component failures of FIA mandated equipment like the fly-by-wire rear brakes - which caused many offs over the weekend and Krazy's accident

Red Bull's argument is that the sensor was failing during the race which made it impossible to use the FIA offset, which was communicated to the FIA technical rep during the race - but they weren't given an exemption so they will be pinged

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03-18-2014, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 03-18-2014 11:18 AM by Original JB.)
Post: #47
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
On my QANTAS flight home, I read the inflight magazine. This month, it features one of their brand ambassadors and an event supported by QANTAS this month.

[Image: IMG_20140318_142425.jpg]


[Image: IMG_20140318_142437.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140318_142447.jpg]

( the second "i" is silent. )

(03-16-2014 03:20 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  meanwhile, back on topic to the race...

a forum darling punted another forum darling. how do we feel about this?


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Really????? If he really cared so much, perhaps he'd like to attend one year.

LINK


Bernie Ecclestone 'horrified' by lack of sound from the 2014 F1 cars at Australian GP
F1 boss vows to a find a way of "making them sound like racing cars"


By William Esler. Last Updated: 18/03/14 1:51pm




Bernie Ecclestone says he was "horrified" by the lack of sound from the 2014 F1 cars at Sunday's Australian Grand Prix and has vowed to find a way of "making them sound like racing cars".

New engine regulations this season have seen the high-pitched scream of the 2.4-litre V8 engines used between 2006 and 2013 replaced by a deeper growl of 1.6 turbocharged V6 units and organisers of the race in Melbourne revealed on Monday that they were looking into whether the quieter noise from new powerunit was in breach of their contract with Formula 1 Management.

The cheers and shrieks from the crowd and squeals from the Pirelli rubber were much more audible than in the past and Australian Grand Prix Corporation Chairman Ron Walker told The Age newspaper that it was "not what we paid for".

Listen to the 2014 engine as Button laps Albert Park

Ecclestone, a long-time critic of the sport's switch to the new-generation engines, says F1 cannot wait all season to rectify the noise situation and is hoping to find a solution after the first few races.

"I was not horrified by the noise, I was horrified by the lack of it," the F1 boss was quoted by The Age.

"Ron is right with regards to their contract. And I was sorry to be proved right with what I've said all along; these cars don't sound like racing cars. I've been speaking with Jean [Todt, president of F1's governing body, the FIA] this afternoon and what I've said is that we need to see whether there is some way of making them sound like racing cars.

"I don't know whether it's possible but we should investigate. I think let's get the first few races out of the way and then maybe look to do something. We can't wait all season. It could be too late by then."

On Sky Sports

F1 Midweek Report
March 19, 2014 8:30pm
Sky Sports F1 HD

Get a Sky Sports Day Pass
Upgrade to Sky Sports

Ecclestone went on to reveal that Walker has not been the only race promoter to contact him after the race at Albert Park.

"One or two promoters get in touch with me today and they said how unhappy they are," he added. "I spoke to [Ferrari president] Luca di Montezemolo just now and Luca said he's never had as many emails complaining and saying this isn't Formula 1."

The second race of the 2014 season takes place in Malaysia on March 30 with the Bahrain GP a week later. That is followed a fortnight later by the Chinese GP meaning if a quick solution to the engine noise is found, it is unlikely to implemented before the Spanish GP on May 11.

Not bad for a No. 2 Driver
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03-18-2014, 01:34 PM
Post: #48
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
Do we actually care what Bernie thinks any more...if we actually have for the longest time anyway. This is the same idiot that had double points introduced but for less races than he wanted. Is he now the voice of reason that's going to save the sport from the horror that will have killed it by the end of the season...you know, like the ugly noses was going to, and the narrow rear wings before that, and the 2.4 V8's etc etc.
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03-18-2014, 02:29 PM
Post: #49
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
this is serious, chemics. just look at what happened after the silent audi diesels took over le mans. it killed the sport. they didn't return to world championship status or anything good like that.
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03-18-2014, 03:35 PM
Post: #50
RE: 2014 Australian Grand Prix
(03-18-2014 02:29 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  this is serious, chemics. just look at what happened after the silent audi diesels took over le mans. it killed the sport. they didn't return to world championship status or anything good like that.

I know, LeMans is dead, with a terrible entry, no decent teams and no spectators. I'm sure the same Aussies moaning about the noise at F1 are supporting Webber this year with many probably taking more of an interest in the series than they otherwise would have Rolleyes
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