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Pirelli's Secret Test
05-31-2013, 04:34 PM
Post: #1
Pirelli's Secret Test
What do you all make of this?

I find it hard to believe that you could run an F1 car around Barcelona for three days doing 1000kms and keep it "secret". But it all seems highly dodgy and against the rules and most certainly the spirit of them. Given Merc's sudden form at Monaco you have to think it helped them considerably.

What do you think the outcome will be of the FIA investigation?

Nothing - Pirelli and Merc are too important to punish with anything more than a slap on the wrist.

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05-31-2013, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 05:47 PM by leonbray.)
Post: #2
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Mercedes form at Monaco probably had a bit to do with the low average speed of the circuit, plus they qualified at the front of the racing roadblock. I don't remember anyone having tyre problems there. Canada should be a different story

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05-31-2013, 11:48 PM
Post: #3
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
the way I heard it was that pirelli's contract lets them do this, and choose which teams to use. if that's true, I don't understand how the teams can be so surprised by it.

Steve matchett tweeted that the teams were seriously pissed about it - more than with a typical cheatish thing. he said he expects the punishment to be either severe or nothing; not in between.
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06-01-2013, 05:16 AM
Post: #4
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
IMHO it really boils down to:

If there a contract clause that allows Pirelli to chose a team and test - then that is the end of story - good luck Ferrari bad luck everyone else

If there is no contract then they should throw the book at Ferrari (but they probably wouldn't)
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06-01-2013, 05:58 AM
Post: #5
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
From Sawards Blog:

The FIA statement after the Monaco GP that suggested that Pirelli and Mercedes-Benz might not have had proper permission to go testing after Barcelona rang alarm bells on Sunday night in Monte Carlo. The original stories about illegal testing were clearly a storm in a teacup, but the FIA announcement that evening raised eyebrows.

Firstly, the FIA rarely does anything quickly when it comes to Formula 1 and the press release came out with such alacrity after the stewards ruling that it seemed decidedly out of character. The statement seems to have taken Mercedes and Pirelli rather by surprise as well, as they clearly thought that what they were doing was OK. There is, logically, no reason for either organisation to do anything to get themselves into trouble with the federation and while other teams may have squawked about the test that took place there was no obvious reason to suggest that any advantage had been gained. It was just another opportunity to squawk, just as Red Bull did after the Spanish GP.

So what on earth, if anything, was going on? An FIA Tribunal will examine the matter at some point in the next few weeks, although it will probably not happen before Canada. We will see in Montreal whether Mercedes has really made such a huge leap forward in terms of tyre performance, or whether the win in Monaco was more to do with the nature of the track than the tyres. It will still be hard to judge because teams make progress all the time, but if the cars fade in the race as they have at other tracks, then there will be indication.

The FIA says that while approval was given for the test, there are aspects of what happened that are questionable. There is no doubt that in the Sporting Regulations it says that teams are not allowed to test current cars during the season, except for a number of straight line aerodynamic tests and the Young Driver test. They are, however, allowed to run cars that are two years old or more. Pirelli says that in its contract, it is allowed to ask a team to supply a car for testing if there is a safety issue involved. There is an argument that this was required after some tyre failures in Bahrain, although Pirelli itself has said that safety was not compromised by the treads coming off. Ferrari did agree to do a test for Pirelli in Barcelona with a 2011 car driven by Pedro de la Rosa. Given that Pirelli says that old cars are not much use for testing 2013 tyres, it is an odd thing to have done, although it is always possible that Pirelli reached that conclusion during the Ferrari test. Whatever the case, plans were then made for Mercedes to do a three day test, between May 15 and 17 in Barcelona, using a 2013 car.

The tests were not announced because it seems that Pirelli was worried that any attempt to test would be met with the kind of uproar and bad publicity that was heard in Monaco on Sunday. It was a better idea to get the job done on the quiet and not have to deal with a storm of noise in the media. That argument makes a lot of sense.

The FIA is disputing that it agreed to the test that occurred, which suggests that Mercedes and Pirelli took advantage of the situation. However Pirelli argues that it did not inform Mercedes what tyres were being tested and that these were a combination of work that was useful for 2014 and in an effort to solve the problem of the tread coming off, as was seen in Bahrain. These tyres were likely to have been different constructions, profiles and compounds and as we have seen on many occasions this year the 2013 tyres behave very differently in different temperatures and so arguing that Mercedes will have gained an advantage is stretching the argument.

So it is fair to say that the problem is not about the tyres, but rather about how and why the test came about. The technical people at the FIA know that it is unlikely that Mercedes gained any advantage from the test, so if there is trouble it is for reasons other than those being stated by the rival teams.

All of this is occurring against a backdrop of negotiations for a new tyre deal for 2014-2015-2016. Pirelli is making the point that it is a bit too late to change and that the teams need to agree to the financial deals on offer or the sport could find itself without a tyre supplier, if Pirelli decides to walk.

So the real question is whether or not it is too late for another tyre company to replace Pirelli.

Turn back the clock three years to May 2010 and there was a similar story going on. The sport had yet to agree whether to use Pirelli or Michelin. The French company’s offer was attractive, both technically and financially, but there was a political game going on in the background. Bernie Ecclestone wanted Pirelli, FIA President Jean Todt wanted Michelin. The question was really over who had the right to decide.

Was it a commercial matter or a sporting one?

In some championships the FIA asks for bids from suppliers, in others it leaves it up to the commercial rights holder. It is not clear who should decide. In 2010 the deal for 2011-2012-2013 went to Pirelli. The FIA accepted the situation after Michelin backed away from the negotiations. It was in many respects a victory for Ecclestone but the FIA had no choice but to accept the deal in the circumstances. The announcement was made on June 23 after the deal had been signed off by the World Motor Sport Council. In the press release at the time the FIA noted that “the sole supplier will undertake to strictly respect the sporting and technical regulations implemented by the FIA”. It was an odd statement. Now that there has been a glitch it sounds almost threatening.

Conspiracy theorists in F1 circles are now suggesting that the minor kerfuffle in Monaco has become something rather bigger, not because Mercedes gained any great advantage as rival teams are arguing, but rather because it has presented the FIA with an opportunity to reassert its power on the question of who decides on the technical partnerships of the Formula 1 World Championship. Both the FIA and FOM claim the right, but the outcome is more to do with who plays a better political game at the moment the deal is done.

If Pirelli was able to bang out the right kind of tyres in 2010-2011 despite the decision not being made until the World Council meeting in June, the same must be possible for Michelin in 2013-2014.

The other elements of this so-called scandal can be written off as being a sign of the disjointed nature of the sport at the moment, with the teams fighting over anything and everything because they are unhappy with one another about commercial deals struck and other political games played.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

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06-01-2013, 10:55 AM
Post: #6
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
As I understand it, Pirelli can choose any team to test their tires during a season, however the cars must be driven by tire-testing drivers- not car-handling current F1 season pilots.

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06-03-2013, 12:34 PM
Post: #7
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Most fans are disappointed with the tyre issues anyway this year. This "secret" test gives the fans (and probably other teams) a chance to vent some of the frustration that has been building. I agree w/ Yaaay, how can you run a car around a track and keep it secret? I'm sure each of the bigger teams have a pretty good idea of the comings and goings of the other bigger teams.

I really don't think we can make any judgements based on anything in Monaco. The circuit doesn't lend itself to capturing accurate data that can be extrapolated to the other circuits. Like Leon said, Canada will be a true test.

Also, worth noting, just before the Spanish GP, there was big discussion about Mercedes not being able to understand the tires under race conditions, specifically related to the camber to ensure solid cornering without degrading the inside of the tire. Just to add to some conspiracy, I wonder how quickly into the test that issue was fixed?

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06-05-2013, 06:18 PM
Post: #8
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Mercedes to face International Tribunal

Mercedes will face an investigation from the FIA's International Tribunal regarding its recent secret tyre test with Pirelli, while Ferrari has been cleared for its test with a 2011 car.
The Mercedes test at Barcelona was referred to the stewards of the Monaco Grand Prix when Red Bull and Ferrari lodged a protest on that weekend.
The FIA has been waiting for a report from the Monaco stewards before deciding if Mercedes had a case to answer, and it has decided to pass the matter on to the International Tribunal.
How the International Tribunal works
The sport's governing body explained that it requested information from those involved and rival teams before coming to its conclusion.
Ferrari's own test with Pirelli, conducted at Barcelona in April with a 2011 car, was deemed not to breach the rules.
An FIA statement said: "In the light of all the replies received and in view of the information gathered during this inquiry, the president of the FIA, acting as the FIA prosecuting body, has decided:
"To close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organised by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules.
"To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.
"The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules."
THE FULL STATEMENT FROM THE FIA
The Monaco Grand Prix Stewards raised in their report to the FIA an issue concerning a tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli with the participation of Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013[1].
The FIA requested clarifications from Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in this respect.
The FIA also asked questions to Scuderia Ferrari Team, which took part in a tyre test with Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013.
The FIA requested all the other F1 Teams to provide the FIA with information they may have regarding any tests carried out by Pirelli during the 2013 season.
In the light of all the replies received and in view of the information gathered during this inquiry, the President of the FIA, acting as the FIA prosecuting body, has decided:
* To close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organized by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules.
* To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.
The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules.
[1] The Stewards' report follows the protests made by Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Ferrari Team on the occasion of the Monaco Grand Prix against Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 concerning its participation in the Barcelona tests (15-17 May 2013).

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06-05-2013, 08:25 PM
Post: #9
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
what a mess we're in. it seems like a lack of due diligence on the part of the fia has created this scenario in which one of two outcomes will occur: 1) the tire supplier has a contract allowing it to test with any team it chooses but the teams are not allowed to accept the invitation, or 2) the teams are prohibited from doing any real in-season testing in their current cars unless the tire manufacturer tells a team that they can.
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06-06-2013, 08:21 AM
Post: #10
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
(06-05-2013 08:25 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  what a mess we're in. it seems like a lack of due diligence on the part of the fia has created this scenario in which one of two outcomes will occur: 1) the tire supplier has a contract allowing it to test with any team it chooses but the teams are not allowed to accept the invitation, or 2) the teams are prohibited from doing any real in-season testing in their current cars unless the tire manufacturer tells a team that they can.

Wouldn't the simple solution to all of this be to have just had a real test with all the teams.

At worst Pirelli just decide to walk away at the end of their contract (which finishes this year?) and Mercedes do the same because the board decide they don't want the bad PR from it all. Other suppliers are already either saying they can't do 2014 or will only do it if competition is involved. Wouldn't that look silly if the pinnacle of motorsport had no tyre supplier.
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06-06-2013, 02:09 PM
Post: #11
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
(06-06-2013 08:21 AM)chemics Wrote:  Wouldn't the simple solution to all of this be to have just had a real test with all the teams.

all the big teams would be happy with that, and the mid-level teams would probably be okay with it, but the small teams spent a lot of energy lobbying for the testing ban and would not be pleased to see an expensive in-season test pop up again.
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06-07-2013, 10:01 AM
Post: #12
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Maybe they should have saved the money they spent lobbying and used it for testing (#facetious)

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06-16-2013, 01:10 PM
Post: #13
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Mercedes to reveal FIA email that gave them 'permission to test'

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06-21-2013, 08:51 AM
Post: #14
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
International Tribunal
The following hearing of the International Tribunal took place in Paris on Thursday 20 June 2013. Disciplinary procedure against Mercedes and Pirelli (2013 FIA Formula One World Championship)
FRI 21.06.13, 1:01PM
Reminder of the facts

On 5 June 2013, further to protests lodged during the 2013 Monaco GP by Red Bull Racing and Ferrari Scuderia Team against cars n°9 and 10 (Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team) for having conducted with Pirelli a three day tyre testing using a 2013 car on 15, 16 and 17 May in Barcelona, the President of the FIA, acting as the FIA Prosecuting Body, sent to the President of the International Tribunal a notification of charges against Pirelli and a notification of charges against Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team.

On 5 June 2013, Pirelli and Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team have been convened by the President of the International Tribunal to appear before a judging panel of the International Tribunal.

Decision of the International Tribunal

The Tribunal, after having heard the parties and examined their submissions, decided that:

Mercedes be reprimanded;
Mercedes be suspended from participating in the forthcoming “three day young driver training test”;
Pirelli be reprimanded.
and rejected all other and further conclusions.

The International Tribunal was presided over by Mr Edwin GLASGOW QC (Great Britain), and included Mr Christy HARRIS (United States), Mr Patrick RAEDERSDORF (Switzerland) and Mr Anthony SCOTT ANDREWS (Great Britain).

The full decision is available on :


http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/n...20(EN).pdf

What a crock full of shyte

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06-21-2013, 01:39 PM
Post: #15
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
hahaha, reprimanded and banned from the young driver test. my only complaint is that the fia didn't also get a reprimand for setting the rules in opposition to each other. they're the ones who created this mess.
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06-21-2013, 02:01 PM
Post: #16
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
This is 100% spot on.

http://thepitstopblog.com/2013/06/21/wha...t-verdict/

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06-21-2013, 11:36 PM
Post: #17
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
So, who gets the punishment? The innocent young drivers who now see Silverstone as the boulevard of broken dreams.

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06-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Post: #18
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
it would be a nice gesture if the team gave them some friday runs to make up for it.
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06-24-2013, 07:57 AM
Post: #19
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
(06-22-2013 12:13 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  it would be a nice gesture if the team gave them some friday runs to make up for it.

I suspect Nico & Lewis may get a little upset at being out of the car for a practice session. Although I'm half surprised Roscoe hasn't had a go in the car yet.
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06-24-2013, 10:35 AM
Post: #20
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/stor...CMP=chrome

Apparently Red Bull may lead a rebellion against the rules. I hope they try and get due punishment, Horner is acting like a spoiled child, he must realise the Pirelli test was more of an FIA cock up than anything else. Openly defying the rules to test is a completely different ball game.

I hate how the teams also try to prove the Mercedes gain from the Monaco result, that win was purely a result of a fast car in quali and a well managed strategy. Mercedes were fast in quali before the test and they haven't suddenly shown race winning pace elsewhere on tracks that it's possible to overtake on.
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07-01-2013, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2013 06:31 PM by DesireeF1Weekly.)
Post: #21
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Do you think Mercedes' karma got Lewis?

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07-02-2013, 04:03 AM
Post: #22
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
Horner and Newey are winding themselves up in to a self-righteous fervour over the other teams who vetoed Pirelli's safety-motivated plan to switch belt material.

Naturally, safety is always RBR's first concern. You'd never hear of them compromising safety by, errrmmmm.. lets say, like running pressures below Pirelli's recommended safety limit in 2011 and 12, would you?

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07-02-2013, 04:50 AM
Post: #23
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
it's really disturbing seeing safety being used as a cheap politicking tool. if there's anything that can get rivals to lay down their swords and agree on, it should be common safety.
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07-02-2013, 08:46 AM
Post: #24
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
(07-02-2013 04:50 AM)frankdouglason Wrote:  it's really disturbing seeing safety being used as a cheap politicking tool. if there's anything that can get rivals to lay down their swords and agree on, it should be common safety.

It shouldn't (and looks like it won't) need agreement if it comes down to safety to make changes.

The FIA could also make the cars drive inside the circuit boundary, it's a novel idea, but it might help.
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07-02-2013, 02:15 PM
Post: #25
RE: Pirelli's Secret Test
(07-02-2013 08:46 AM)chemics Wrote:  The FIA could also make the cars drive inside the circuit boundary, it's a novel idea, but it might help.

well, they could try. even under the safety car, lots of drivers were struggling to comply with that directive from their race engineers. but i think it would be silly to make the drivers adjust to these absurd tires rather than just fixing them.
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