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team sport
04-22-2013, 04:11 PM
Post: #1
team sport
i was watching a basketball game last weekend. there was this one player who had a great competitive spirit. he wanted to score baskets so much, he would run around and try to steal the ball from whomever had it, whether that player was on his team or the other team. some of his teammates protested that they should be working together, and even resorted to asking the coach to intervene and get the one player to stick to the team's game plan. they're such babies! if they don't want their teammate to steal the ball from them, they should hurry up and score a basket before he gets the chance, rather than expect him to cooperate just because he's on the same team. i hate it when coaches interfere with the game by trying to plan things and get the various team members to work together. it ruins the game! every player should be, not only allowed, but encouraged to score as much as they can for themselves, even if it means reducing the team's net effectiveness and helps other teams catch up on the scoreboard. i like players that won't be told what to do; players who are willing to fight for the baskets; players who only care about themselves!
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04-22-2013, 04:40 PM
Post: #2
RE: team sport
(04-22-2013 04:11 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  i was watching a basketball game last weekend. there was this one player who had a great competitive spirit. he wanted to score baskets so much, he would run around and try to steal the ball from whomever had it, whether that player was on his team or the other team. some of his teammates protested that they should be working together, and even resorted to asking the coach to intervene and get the one player to stick to the team's game plan. they're such babies! if they don't want their teammate to steal the ball from them, they should hurry up and score a basket before he gets the chance, rather than expect him to cooperate just because he's on the same team. i hate it when coaches interfere with the game by trying to plan things and get the various team members to work together. it ruins the game! every player should be, not only allowed, but encouraged to score as much as they can for themselves, even if it means reducing the team's net effectiveness and helps other teams catch up on the scoreboard. i like players that won't be told what to do; players who are willing to fight for the baskets; players who only care about themselves!

Sounds to me like you should stop watching Basketball and start watching motorsport if you like that. Especially F1.

Tell me though, does Basketball have a players champion at the end of the season, that despite what the teams say, is considered the most important title awarded and can be achieved regardless of team results?

I know there is an MVP award or something similar, but I assume that can't be achieved without working with your team to achieve victories, and whilst nice to have, isn't the same as a championship ring that comes with the team. The only forms of motorsport that have the level of teamwork that matches something like that is endurance racing with multiple drivers/riders in/on the same machine. Even then I'm sure they want to beat a sister car/bike.

I suspect you may like this one Frank

http://sniffpetrol.com/2013/04/22/button...ing-perez/
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04-22-2013, 05:47 PM
Post: #3
RE: team sport
One hopes one isn't being serious.

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04-22-2013, 05:50 PM
Post: #4
RE: team sport
(04-22-2013 04:40 PM)chemics Wrote:  does Basketball have a players champion at the end of the season, that despite what the teams say, is considered the most important title awarded

there you go packing your preferred answer into your question again.

basketball does have an individual championship, as you mentioned in your next paragraph. it's the mvp award. you do not have to be on a winning team to win it, though they often go together for obvious reasons. and there are some players who think it's more important than the championship.

the real crux of the issue, as you allude to but try to deny, is the fact that "despite what the [people directly involved in and most knowledgable of formula 1] say," the media-fan rabble obsess over the drivers and cling to their illusion that they are the only people who matter, at least when it's not inconvenient.

you see, in basketball, those players i mentioned who think the mvp is the primary goal are called ball hogs. and poor sports. and prima donnas. and locker room cancers. as is the case in every other team sport i've ever watched except for f1. somehow, the f1 rabble has perverted the nature of team sports in their heads.

this isn't tennis or boxing or pole vault. it's a team sport. and yet the teammates who undermine their own team are scrappy heroes (unless we've decided ahead of time that we like the other teammate better), while the teammates who stay loyal to the team and expect the same in return from everyone else are babies.

imagine if the basketball rabble suddenly turned on their own sport like the f1 rabble has. i picked basketball because it's actually quite plausible that this could happen soon. it's a star-driven league now, with personality getting more attention than wins. imagine the nonsense that would go on in basketball games if that was promoted.

i did like when you suggested that i not watch basketball, and find something that better suited my interests. i don't have a problem with individual sports, nor people who enjoy them more than team sports. but they should really go find one. there's plenty out there. don't try to turn a team sport into an individual sport. it will never really work. it will only make it a crappy, dysfunctional team sport.
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04-23-2013, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 04-23-2013 08:46 AM by chemics.)
Post: #5
RE: team sport
I think in general, motorsport has a problem with the team sport concept. It's a team sport and an individual sport at the same time. I can't think of a good example of another sport that has that problem. You have two individuals who's primary goal is to win, which is in itself a very individual goal. Regardless of what any driver says, they all want to win for themselves. Even if they will obey team orders and help the team, any driver in F1 has to have the goal of becoming WDC. I can't honestly believe anyone would get to F1 with the primary goal of helping a team achieve a constructors championship.

In other team sports like Soccer success would predominantly be measured in the achievement of championships, which is the team goal. Scoring the goals is important and gains individual recognition, and there are certainly players that may chase that to the detriment of the team, but generally the team works together to win the team title.

I can honestly say I have never watched more than 10 minutes of a basketball game, so I have no idea how valuable the MVP is, or if players chase it to the detriment of the team. Is it awarded based on points, or is it opinion based? I'd hope an opinion based award would consider playing to the detriment of the team a negative and mean the ball hog type player was less likely to win, but I expect that isn't the case.

You suggest that the majority, who follow F1 for the WDC shouldn't watch the sport because it's a team sport and they are the ones that are making it an individual sport, or at least a dysfunctional team sport. (Or at least I think that's what you are suggesting). But has F1 ever really been any different to now? Maybe it's because the talent pool is so deep at the moment with a lot of champion drivers, so we see more of it. But I have to believe that in the past drivers were just as bad as they are now, we just didn't have the access we have now that allows us to know that. You probably also had much clearer number 1/2 status that dealt with issues if they arose. Just look back to Prost/Senna, there was no way they were driving for the team.

I wonder if there would there have been a Red Bull issue if the team told Mark he was number 2 and he would be expected to help Vettel win more titles? It certainly worked at Ferrari through the Schumacher era. I know what Vettel did has sparked plenty of debate, and in support of the team he should have done what he was asked. However, I think Horner needs to take some of the blame. He needs to stop trying to kid himself that he can have drivers of equal standing in a team where one drive is clearly significantly superior to the other and set the team up to focus winning titles. Jean Todt got it and look how many titles that gained for both the lead driver and the team.
I hate that F1 has turned into so much arguing and politics. Whatever happened to "When the flag drops, the bulls**t stops"?

Maybe it's just a ill conceived ideal that Sunday should be a race and the politics can happen the rest of the time to keep us talking. I'm starting to feel pretty disillusioned with F1 in general lately. I haven't even bothered watching the last 2 races yet.
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04-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Post: #6
RE: team sport
(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  I have no idea how valuable the MVP is, or if players chase it to the detriment of the team. Is it awarded based on points, or is it opinion based?

it is voted on by basketball journalists, so it is opinion based, but history tells us you almost always have to be among the top scorers to win it, and being a nice guy is not required. and for the record, i'm not a basketball fan either, but i am aware of the general goings-on.

(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  You suggest that the majority, who follow F1 for the WDC shouldn't watch the sport because it's a team sport and they are the ones that are making it an individual sport, or at least a dysfunctional team sport. (Or at least I think that's what you are suggesting).

well, i'd much rather they get a reality-based appreciation of f1, but yes, if they're committed to insisting it's an individual sport, i think we'd all be better off if they find something that actually is an individual sport. when the rules change in an attempt to hide the fact that it's a team sport from the rabble, i think there's a serious problem. it's hard to imagine another sport where the league prohibits the teams from admitting to the media that they go into a game with a team plan. and i know you're saying that racing isn't like other team sports, but the only real difference is rabble expectation.

(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  However, I think Horner needs to take some of the blame. He needs to stop trying to kid himself that he can have drivers of equal standing in a team where one drive is clearly significantly superior to the other and set the team up to focus winning titles.

i agree wholeheartedly. i think horner deserves not just some of the blame, but the lion's share. his team is wildly out of control. it is a failure of leadership.

(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  Whatever happened to "When the flag drops, the bulls**t stops"?
i think it would be fantastically hilarious if the next time a driver decided he was more important than the team, and broke the team strategy in an act of self aggrandizement, the team simply turned his radio off and kept his mechanics in the garage when he rolled down pit lane. i think that would be a great way to get the bullshit to stop right quick.
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04-23-2013, 04:20 PM
Post: #7
RE: team sport
(04-23-2013 02:59 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  Whatever happened to "When the flag drops, the bulls**t stops"?
i think it would be fantastically hilarious if the next time a driver decided he was more important than the team, and broke the team strategy in an act of self aggrandizement, the team simply turned his radio off and kept his mechanics in the garage when he rolled down pit lane. i think that would be a great way to get the bullshit to stop right quick.

That would be fantastic, not that it would ever happen in this era. Has there ever been a time in history where a driver has done something to the team that has resulted in the team effectively slapping them down? It's hard to believe it hasn't going back to an era with private owned team dominated by big personalities.

I could see a second driver being benched for a reserve driver in the current era, especially if there was a fast reserve trying to break into F1.

I didn't like the Multi21 Red Bull. Team orders are allowed, why did they try and hide them in a stupid code? Mercedes were clear to their drivers exactly what they wanted them to do, as much as I'd rather see cars race, I prefer the teams be honest.

I also don't understand why teams don't push the team orders being allowed to their advantage more. I'd love to hear something like Massa being told to back the pack up to give Alonso a big enough gap to pit and stay in front of someone. If it's a team sport, the team should use the rules to their absolute advantage.
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04-23-2013, 04:51 PM
Post: #8
RE: team sport
(04-23-2013 04:20 PM)chemics Wrote:  I didn't like the Multi21 Red Bull. Team orders are allowed, why did they try and hide them in a stupid code? Mercedes were clear to their drivers exactly what they wanted them to do, as much as I'd rather see cars race, I prefer the teams be honest.

i agree, mercedes handled it much better. they also got more cooperation out of their drivers, though we can't really say how much ross' explaining things to nico had to do with that. if we were to give red bull the benefit of the doubt, we might say that they were speaking in code because they didn't want the other teams to know they were backing off their engine power, but that's probably reaching a bit.

(04-23-2013 04:20 PM)chemics Wrote:  I also don't understand why teams don't push the team orders being allowed to their advantage more. I'd love to hear something like Massa being told to back the pack up to give Alonso a big enough gap to pit and stay in front of someone. If it's a team sport, the team should use the rules to their absolute advantage.

wow, i haven't thought about that in years, but you're right. those were some crazy times. i wonder if that stuff would even be possible in the drs era. i'd like to see them try.
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04-23-2013, 05:38 PM
Post: #9
RE: team sport
(04-23-2013 04:20 PM)chemics Wrote:  I'd love to hear something like Massa being told to back the pack up to give Alonso a big enough gap to pit and stay in front of someone.

I am sure this has happened in the past we just didn't know about it. I'm sure Rubens and Eddie would have been made to do this for Schumacher at some stage. I would have thought it would be frowned upon as it's deliberately blocking, which isn't allowed.

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04-23-2013, 06:19 PM
Post: #10
RE: team sport
if driving less than your fastest possible pace is blocking, then every car has been blocking for the vast majority of every race this year.
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05-15-2013, 12:14 AM
Post: #11
RE: team sport
(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  I hate that F1 has turned into so much arguing and politics. Whatever happened to "When the flag drops, the bulls**t stops"?

To quote Yaaay, "One hopes one isn't being serious". Personally, I'm of the opinion that the political nonsense in F1 is causing a number of fans to tune out, and it would appear you're in danger of becoming another casualty...

(04-23-2013 08:42 AM)chemics Wrote:  I'm starting to feel pretty disillusioned with F1 in general lately. I haven't even bothered watching the last 2 races yet.

...This is where it began for me several years ago now, and I come back still reclining in the same comfortable seat. Friends, I haven't watched a race since Vettel won his first driver's title so you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but has anything happened in F1 in the past several years that was as exciting as watching Alonso and Schumi battling it out for the WDC? I dare say no, but again, I haven't been watching, so perhaps I'm wrong. I put that question to the two people I know who watch F1, only to find (surprise!) that they no longer watch regularly. Their complaint? Essentially that "All the rules changes have taken the excitement out of the sport." I couldn't agree more. It's like they conspired to turn the world on its head, and I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in contrived results, thanks.

"If this is the pinnacle of motorsport, I'm obviously in Bizzaro World..."- me, watching Buemi's front suspension disintegrate in China for no reason
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05-15-2013, 12:43 AM
Post: #12
RE: team sport
(05-15-2013 12:14 AM)TheFIAFerrariConspiracy Wrote:  has anything happened in F1 in the past several years that was as exciting as watching Alonso and Schumi battling it out for the WDC?

this obviously depends on what one finds exciting, but i would say no, we haven't seen anything that good since then.

f1 is being nascar-ified; twist the rules into whatever shape necessary to maximize parity and overtaking. of course, like in nascar, the more parity and the easier passing gets, the less impressive a win or an overtake is. the races used to be long stretches of rather dull procession and track position, punctuated by exciting moments of overtaking and out-lap heroics to jump a spot on the pit cycle. now the races are just dull and full of dull overtaking.

i'm optimistic that this year the rabble seems to be changing their mind - which i'm hoping will lead to a realization that they are stupid and shouldn't be kowtowed to - and the tires will go back to reasonable next year. real tires, combined with the shake-up of new engines could provide a big step back in the right direction.
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05-15-2013, 10:45 AM
Post: #13
RE: team sport
Whoa...FFC is back!

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05-15-2013, 09:01 PM
Post: #14
RE: team sport
(05-15-2013 10:45 AM)Jackson Wrote:  Whoa...FFC is back!

Yes a blast from the past Smile
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05-16-2013, 12:25 PM
Post: #15
RE: team sport
I hear the rattling of chains from the dungeon...

Must be an omen for Fred's WDC in '13!

Regards,
Mark

"A man who took simple pleasure in making things work properly"
[Nigel Roebuck, writing of Bruce McLaren]

"Bruce McLaren was the best person I ever worked for. He was amazing"
[Howden Ganley, 12th September 2009]
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