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i hate these tires
05-14-2012, 03:37 PM
Post: #1
i hate these tires
their peak performance is way too narrow. it's cute and all that nico and pastor are getting their little moments in the sun, but this is formula 1; it's supposed to be a competition, not a summer camp game where everyone gets a chance to win. i want to see who can build the best car and who can drive it the fastest. i don't want to see who will luck into the right tire loading characteristics for that day's particular track layout, surface, and weather.

also, michael was right. the emphasis put on managing degradation is way out of proportion. i can (and do) watch sports car racing for that kind of endurance driving. when i watch f1, i want blinding speed. i want the very limit of what is possible. i don't want the race engineers telling the drivers to slow down or speed up by a couple tenths every few laps. obviously, managing the tires always has been and always will be part of all racing, but it's completely out of control in f1 this year.
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05-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Post: #2
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 03:37 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  their peak performance is way too narrow. it's cute and all that nico and pastor are getting their little moments in the sun, but this is formula 1; it's supposed to be a competition, not a summer camp game where everyone gets a chance to win. i want to see who can build the best car and who can drive it the fastest. i don't want to see who will luck into the right tire loading characteristics for that day's particular track layout, surface, and weather.

also, michael was right. the emphasis put on managing degradation is way out of proportion. i can (and do) watch sports car racing for that kind of endurance driving. when i watch f1, i want blinding speed. i want the very limit of what is possible. i don't want the race engineers telling the drivers to slow down or speed up by a couple tenths every few laps. obviously, managing the tires always has been and always will be part of all racing, but it's completely out of control in f1 this year.

It's still mainly the same drivers at the front every week with the odd exception when someone gets it horribly wrong like Kimi going backwards or someone gets it spot on like Nico/Maldonado. Is it any different to when we had Force India near the win on the low downforce tracks a few years ago because their car happened to be great in that configuration? I don't think so, this year it's just when a teams car clicks with the track/tyre combination.
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05-14-2012, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2012 04:23 PM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #3
RE: i hate these tires
firstly, you're right that last year's tires weren't very good either. they were much better than this year's tires, but still not good.

(05-14-2012 04:04 PM)chemics Wrote:  Is it any different to when we had Force India near the win on the low downforce tracks a few years ago because their car happened to be great in that configuration?

what??? no force india car finished higher than 6th last year. last year, over the course of 19 races, we had a total of 7 different drivers from 4 different teams stand on the podium and 5 different drivers from 3 different teams win a race. this year, over the course of 5 races, we have had 9 different drivers from 7 different teams stand on the podium and 5 different drivers from 5 different teams win a race. yeah, it's a lot different.
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05-14-2012, 04:33 PM
Post: #4
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 04:21 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  firstly, you're right that last year's tires weren't very good either. they were much better than this year's tires, but still not good.

(05-14-2012 04:04 PM)chemics Wrote:  Is it any different to when we had Force India near the win on the low downforce tracks a few years ago because their car happened to be great in that configuration?

what??? no force india car finished higher than 6th last year. last year, over the course of 19 races, we had a total of 7 different drivers from 4 different teams stand on the podium and 5 different drivers from 3 different teams win a race. this year, over the course of 5 races, we have had 9 different drivers from 7 different teams stand on the podium and 5 different drivers from 5 different teams win a race. yeah, it's a lot different.

I don't mean last year, I think it was 2009, Fissi was 2nd in a Force India which had amazing low downforce pace but was average everywhere else.

I still think it's down to the teams to get it right. The top teams seem to be good at throwing results away this year. The first 4 winners were all top teams. I also think that it won't be long until the top 4/5 teams get their acts together and learn how to make the tyres work at every track.

It never hurts that it seems like we have 5/6 teams capable of winning races on genuine pace this year, when did that last happen?
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05-14-2012, 04:48 PM
Post: #5
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 04:33 PM)chemics Wrote:  I don't mean last year, I think it was 2009, Fissi was 2nd in a Force India which had amazing low downforce pace but was average everywhere else.

oh, i see. my mistake. in 2009, force india had one p2, one p4, and then nothing else in the points. but still, different cars being good on different types of tracks is not unusual. it's just a case of different cars having different strong suits.

i see no indication of this year's insanity being caused by the different strong suits of the different cars. it seems to be totally random this year, which is why i find it so uninteresting.

(05-14-2012 04:33 PM)chemics Wrote:  I also think that it won't be long until the top 4/5 teams get their acts together and learn how to make the tyres work at every track.

i hope you're right. i hope it stabilized into a season with a real championship fight instead of this lottery system.

(05-14-2012 04:33 PM)chemics Wrote:  It never hurts that it seems like we have 5/6 teams capable of winning races on genuine pace this year

now you're just begging the question. my whole complaint is that they're not winning on genuine pace. you can't claim that it's not so bad because at least they're winning on merit. you're packing your conclusion into your premises.
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05-14-2012, 06:16 PM
Post: #6
RE: i hate these tires
Is this a private argument or can anyone join in?

I've always hated tyres. The best time was when Bridgestone were in it alone, although Ferrari took advantage.

The Michelin/Bridgestone war years were terrible.

They have a disproportionate effect on the cars performance.

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05-14-2012, 07:28 PM
Post: #7
RE: i hate these tires
it's not a private argument. welcome.

the tire wars were unfortunate in that sometimes the best team had the wrong tires and couldn't overcome that. but they were great in that proper incentives pushed the tire technology, which pushed the speed.

it would be great if we could have multiple tire suppliers and ban exclusive contracts between the suppliers and the teams. add an early morning practice session (young drivers, perhaps) for the teams to try whichever tires they wanted to consider using for that weekend.
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05-14-2012, 07:37 PM
Post: #8
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 07:28 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  it would be great if we could have multiple tire suppliers and ban exclusive contracts between the suppliers and the teams.

How would that be better? We would have a pure tyre championship. A good tyre compared to a bad tyre is worth whole seconds a lap. No driver or team can do that.

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05-14-2012, 07:38 PM
Post: #9
RE: i hate these tires
I might add a little to the rant if i may,
It also vastly annoys me when people decided not to do a lap of to be content with a slower time in qualifying to save tyres!

"Second is the first of the losers" Richard Hammond
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05-14-2012, 07:40 PM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2012 07:42 PM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #10
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 07:37 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  
(05-14-2012 07:28 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  it would be great if we could have multiple tire suppliers and ban exclusive contracts between the suppliers and the teams.

How would that be better? We would have a pure tyre championship. A good tyre compared to a bad tyre is worth whole seconds a lap. No driver or team can do that.

it would be better because without the exclusive contracts, all the teams would use the best tire. no contracts; teams can freely switch tires whenever they want. like you said, the best tire for that track/weather would be pretty apparent after an hour of testing, so if there was a significant difference, they would all use the same tire that weekend. we get all the technological benefit of a tire war, without teams getting stuck on the wrong tires, save for inability to pick the right one (their own fault) or erratic weather (screws with everything anyway).
(05-14-2012 07:38 PM)Ponte92 Wrote:  I might add a little to the rant if i may,
It also vastly annoys me when people decided not to do a lap of to be content with a slower time in qualifying to save tyres!

another good point. though i would say part of the blame for that falls on a qualifying format that allows teams to sit out sessions and still have top 10 grid positions.
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05-14-2012, 07:57 PM
Post: #11
RE: i hate these tires
Ponte is spot on. I think the current quali format is perfect except for the tyre allocation. If they had two sets of each tyres for quali and a fresh set of two sets of each for the race then there would be no issues.

I am totally in agreement with the car you quali in is the car you race in. But carrying through tyres is silly.

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05-14-2012, 08:08 PM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2012 08:17 PM by bmw85.)
Post: #12
RE: i hate these tires
I like the tires. This is Formula 1. A lot of emphasis is put on the "1" part, i.e. this is the highest echelon of motorsport and that today's cars don't allow drivers to perform that way. I agree to an extent, but it is also a "Formula" series, i.e. you are given limitations and you need to do the best you can.

The results are not totally random when you take a close look. Yes Maldonado and Williams won, but he started first on the grid. There are also many subtle points that I enjoy immensely, for example, how closely do you follow a car when the loss in downforce increases tire degradation? And strategy plays a larger role than ever. Tires now need to be budgeted like fuel or engines or gearboxes. You all know that cars have fuel settings and that they are set to 100% only rarely. Why doesn't Schumacher complain about that? F1 isn't a total crapshoot, it's the art of balancing a hugely complex decision space and a chance to show real talent at a driver and engineering level. Read the last half of that sentence again. Schumacher getting all that special treatment in the last decade is a slap in the face to everything I love about F1.

P.S. I can't believe Michael is complaining about having to be careful and tip-toe around the track and then he slams into the back of another car. Totally inexcusable and hypocritical. Exercise some restraint.
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05-15-2012, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 05-15-2012 08:26 AM by chemics.)
Post: #13
RE: i hate these tires
(05-14-2012 07:40 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(05-14-2012 07:37 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  
(05-14-2012 07:28 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  it would be great if we could have multiple tire suppliers and ban exclusive contracts between the suppliers and the teams.

How would that be better? We would have a pure tyre championship. A good tyre compared to a bad tyre is worth whole seconds a lap. No driver or team can do that.

it would be better because without the exclusive contracts, all the teams would use the best tire. no contracts; teams can freely switch tires whenever they want. like you said, the best tire for that track/weather would be pretty apparent after an hour of testing, so if there was a significant difference, they would all use the same tire that weekend. we get all the technological benefit of a tire war, without teams getting stuck on the wrong tires, save for inability to pick the right one (their own fault) or erratic weather (screws with everything anyway).

The reality is that two tyre manufacturers products would be so different you couldn't possibly hope to change brands between races. Even changing from one season to the next has caused teams difficulties in the past as they build data and set their car up for a different type of tyre characteristic. There is also no way to avoid manufacturer favourability. If 5 teams give feedback to a supplier how do you ensure that ones info isn't used more than another? You can't. If it happens with one supplier you can guarantee it will happen with another as they won't want to be beaten just to be fair to multiple teams.

Whether you like the tyres or not this year, everyone has to use the same ones and deal with their difficulties. It may look random the way the results fall out, but I think that's just a lack of understanding on the teams part on how to get the best out of them in varying conditions.

I do think it will settle down a bit now though. This was the first round with a raft of new updates, that was always going to make it tricky to make sure you got them working and found the balance to get the best from the tyres. One thing that always remains constant in F1 is the big teams figure it out fastest and rise to the top.
(05-14-2012 04:48 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(05-14-2012 04:33 PM)chemics Wrote:  It never hurts that it seems like we have 5/6 teams capable of winning races on genuine pace this year

now you're just begging the question. my whole complaint is that they're not winning on genuine pace. you can't claim that it's not so bad because at least they're winning on merit. you're packing your conclusion into your premises.

I think we'll only know if it's genuine pace when we get deeper into the season. I feel like the upper midfield is consistently closer to the front this year, but when things settle and we get some more races behind us we'll see.
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05-19-2012, 10:00 AM
Post: #14
RE: i hate these tires
I don't know what to think, but what does drive me insane about these tires is that we're seeing some really competitive driving and then a guy not being able to make that final pass or make his pass stick with any lasting impact on the race. Not only that but he'll lose not one or two places but multiple spots and points due to his tires failing.

you're doing a cracking job mate!!! RolleyesRolleyes
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05-20-2012, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2012 11:17 AM by Neonzapper.)
Post: #15
RE: i hate these tires
If the FIA stated that one side mirror had to be removed and placed in front of the driver's face, it isn't the mirror manufacturing company's fault that the driver can't see, nor will different mirror companies solve that problem. Pirelli is doing exactly what was requested of them. If anything, perhaps the FIA were overstrategic in the formula for strategy.

I think it adds excitement to the mix. It got boring last year watching a race between drivers, while Seb was driving so far ahead of the cameras. Key word, "boring", no matter who was out in front.

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05-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Post: #16
RE: i hate these tires
(05-20-2012 11:11 AM)Neonzapper Wrote:  If the FIA stated that one side mirror had to be removed and placed in front of the driver's face, it isn't the mirror manufacturing company's fault that the driver can't see

i don't blame pirelli. i'm just saying i hate what these tires are doing to the end product, without casting a specific blame.

(05-20-2012 11:11 AM)Neonzapper Wrote:  I think it adds excitement to the mix. It got boring last year watching a race between drivers, while Seb was driving so far ahead of the cameras. Key word, "boring", no matter who was out in front.

maybe you'd prefer it if f1 had some "competition cautions" to prevent that from happening?
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05-20-2012, 05:45 PM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2012 06:29 PM by Neonzapper.)
Post: #17
RE: i hate these tires
(05-20-2012 01:28 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  maybe you'd prefer it if f1 had some "competition cautions" to prevent that from happening?
Hmmm... like a 107 second rule on the front of the pack as well?

I just watched Justin Wilson qualify for next weekend's Indy 500 with a 220.495 lap speed on Firestone tires.

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06-10-2012, 05:36 PM
Post: #18
RE: i hate these tires
Canada was a fantastically entertaining race with all sorts going on right to the last corner of the last lap a complete "glued to the screen experience".

We had a race where the three best drivers in the world, in three different cars were within a few seconds of each other for the first segment of the race.

Then it happened, tyres and tyre strategy took over. We no longer had Alosno vs Hamilton vs Vettel, we had a room full of strategists in Woking vs a room full of strategists in Marranello vs a room full of strategists in Milton Keynes. The guys in Woking won big time and congratulations to them (although what the heck they did with Jensons race I don't know).

I know this is a great season with thrilling races, but I think Pirelli's influence is too strong.

These are the real hero's of Canada 2012.

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06-10-2012, 06:37 PM
Post: #19
RE: i hate these tires
i agree, this race was won by strategy. as much as i enjoyed the race, i was a bit disappointed that red bull and ferrari dropped out like that. though i would also say that hamilton put on a great show of overtaking. i thought this race had the least amount of pirelli lottery effect, however any amount is too much.

the speed commentators posited the idea that jenson's friday work was cut short (i don't recall if they mentioned what the problem was) with the implication that his setup was not well developed.
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06-11-2012, 08:27 AM
Post: #20
RE: i hate these tires
I thought it was a fantastic race full stop. The strategies added interest for me and Alonso & Vettel failed to do what Perez managed and make their tyres last to the end. The Hamilton charge back after his second stop was great to watch, and Vettel taking the unscheduled stop and still beating Alonso was entertaining.

I don't think it was as much of a lottery, the teams are starting to get the hang of the tyres and only just miscalculated the life over the race. Ferrari and to a lesser extent Red Bull, then failed to react fast enough to the change. You could equally argue that Vettel & Alonso didn't manage the tyres as well as they could have with Perez getting a better result with the same strategy starting from 15th.
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06-11-2012, 01:41 PM
Post: #21
RE: i hate these tires
i think it's unfair to blame vettel and alonso for not making their tires last the way perez's tires did. the sauber chassis is much easier on its tires than the red bull or ferrari, the red bull and ferrari are set up stiffer (making that worse), and perez had the primes at the start for the heavy fuel load while vettel and alonso had the options.
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04-15-2013, 08:30 AM
Post: #22
RE: i hate these tires
Not sure if this is the right thread to continue, but the title is probably appropriate for a lot of people opinions of the tyres this year.

This piece from Gary Anderson has a section about the tyres that is interesting. It sounds like tyres always caused a compromise, even in the Bridgestone days, it was just less visible back then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22147074

I think they have gone too far this year, tyres should never stop the cars coming out for practice/quali, but I don't have a big issue with teams having to manage tyres as part of their strategy. I also agree that with tyres like this we don't need DRS to artificially enhance passing. I've only watched the first 4 laps of China, but the way the Ferrari's went past Hamilton was ridiculous.
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04-15-2013, 12:04 PM
Post: #23
RE: i hate these tires
My mind changes every other race.

Right now I am back to thinking it's the same for everyone, cream always rises etc. but with the difference being the tyres effect the show, not necessarily the outcome of the show. Tyres that last only a few laps are the same for all the teams, they are stupid, very stupid and I get asked why they can make tyres that last longer and I have to start explaining why they are doing this.

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04-15-2013, 01:12 PM
Post: #24
RE: i hate these tires
The problem with Sunday's race was the doubly-cr@ppy DRS overtakes not the tyres.
Mostly completely naff, Noddy and skill-free.

(Although it must be said a few of the top drivers do show an extra level of skill while doing it, timing things to prevent their victims from getting them back - e.g. Fernando).

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04-15-2013, 01:31 PM
Post: #25
RE: i hate these tires
yaaay is right that it's the same for everyone. it's not unfair, it's just crummy. my lasting memory of china 2013 is how many drivers radioed their race engineers to ask if they should defend their position, or if they should just toddle around at the predetermined pace and let anyone who wants to go by. worse still is how many engineers said to not fight. i don't expect, nor appreciate, this kind of racing from f1. i want to see them go as fast as they can, and fight it out. i don't want endurance racing. that's what sports cars are for.
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