Register


Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
lapped traffic under safety car
09-26-2011, 04:46 PM
Post: #1
lapped traffic under safety car
i've heard a lot of people from a lot of sources decry the way lapped cars are handled behind the safety car in f1 this year. they all want to see them waved through to line up at the back of the pack. i don't understand this viewpoint.

the leader earned the gap between him and the next car. the leader passed all those cars under racing conditions. we already strip the leader of his gap whenever the safety car comes out, why should we also strip the leader of the advantage of lapping those cars?

it seems like a very nascar policy to me, where putting on a show is more important than having a fair competition. if the leader puts half a lap and five lapped cars between him and the next car, and there's a safety car with 5 laps left, why should the second place car have an opportunity to be 1 second faster than the leader on 1 lap and win the race?

maybe i'm missing something. why should the lapped cars be waved through?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-26-2011, 04:56 PM (This post was last modified: 09-26-2011 05:06 PM by Yaaay.)
Post: #2
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Can anyone remember why they stopped letting lapped cars go through? It was a few years ago, that's all I can remember.
Found it! It was only last year, http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2010/3/10498.html

Done purely to shorten SC periods. It used to take up to 3 extra SC laps to sort the backmarkers out.

Any way. I don't think they should be allowed through just for the show. Last weekend, Jenson got a 20 second bonus on Seb he wouldn't have got without the SC, he then lost 10 seconds clearing the traffic (who did not yield properly) so nett 10 seconds Jenson got for free.

[Image: 29qbihk.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-27-2011, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2011 08:34 AM by parrothead.)
Post: #3
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Double file restarts.
What about the LUCKY DOG???
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-27-2011, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2011 02:03 PM by monzagorilla.)
Post: #4
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Look, safety cars are a problem no matter what. Don't judge just on Sunday's event. Take a slightly different situation:

Imagine Button is a second behind Vettel as they catch a bunch of lapped cars. Just as Vettel gets around the cars first, the safety car comes out. Then when the safety car exits the track, Vettel tears away while Button is stuck behind the backmarkers (he can't pass anyone until he passes the safety car line while Vettel is free to breeze away). Suddenly what was a one second margin before the safety car is now eight or ten. Do you consider that fair?

In the old days a race might be red-flagged instead. That would break the race into two sub-races with the cumulative time being the criteria to be awarded the win. So, you would have a car cross the finish line first, yet be awarded third place based upon cumulative time. Yeah, that was effectively fair, but it certainly wasn't fan-friendly.

Line them up in place order... do a double file restart... whatever.

Madness has its toll.  Please have exact change.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-27-2011, 02:23 PM
Post: #5
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(09-27-2011 02:01 PM)monzagorilla Wrote:  Look, safety cars are a problem no matter what. Don't judge just on Sunday's event. Take a slightly different situation:

Imagine Button is a second behind Vettel as they catch a bunch of lapped cars. Just as Vettel gets around the cars first, the safety car comes out. Then when the safety car exits the track, Vettel tears away while Button is stuck behind the backmarkers (he can't pass anyone until he passes the safety car line while Vettel is free to breeze away). Suddenly what was a one second margin before the safety car is now eight or ten. Do you consider that fair?

no, it's not fair, but it's more fair than the alternative worst-case scenario and it's far less likely to happen.

philosophically, do you think that a fight for the lead at the end of a race is worth more than a fair result?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-28-2011, 08:20 AM
Post: #6
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
I heard they were potentially looking at a speed limiter built into every car where instead of lining up behind the safety car they could just slow everyone to the same pace and maintain the existing time gaps, but that also has it's fair share of problems.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-28-2011, 01:03 PM
Post: #7
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(09-28-2011 08:20 AM)chemics Wrote:  I heard they were potentially looking at a speed limiter built into every car where instead of lining up behind the safety car they could just slow everyone to the same pace and maintain the existing time gaps, but that also has it's fair share of problems.

i would love to see that.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-28-2011, 01:17 PM
Post: #8
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
It would be good but it wouldn't achieve the aim of the SC which is to bunch the field so they all pass the incident at once and the marshals have 90 off seconds of completely clear track to work.

[Image: 29qbihk.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-28-2011, 01:24 PM
Post: #9
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(09-28-2011 01:17 PM)Yaaay Wrote:  It would be good but it wouldn't achieve the aim of the SC which is to bunch the field so they all pass the incident at once and the marshals have 90 off seconds of completely clear track to work.

[Image: dilbert_bah_02.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-28-2011, 01:42 PM
Post: #10
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
You've finally found a worthy sig pic.

[Image: 29qbihk.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Post: #11
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Looks like the issue is addressed for next year: "The Safety Car rules have been modified again so that all lapped cars will be allowed to unlap themselves and then join the back of the pack, before the Safety Car pulls off the track, ensuring a clean re-start without slower cars impeding those racing for the leading positions."

Madness has its toll.  Please have exact change.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Post: #12
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
it's a mistake. this is nascar-style rule making where entertainment is more important than fair play.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Post: #13
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
It is there for entertainment yes, but wouldn't it also be there to help those back runners that never have a chance of keeping up, to keep up a little more with the middle runners?

"Second is the first of the losers" Richard Hammond
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2011 05:55 PM by frankdouglason.)
Post: #14
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
i never thought of that. it's certainly possible. do we want to artificially help the back markers keep up with the midfield? i suppose they'd be artificially distanced from the midfield if we didn't unlap them. i guess that's a no-win. i'm still more concerned with the treatment of the leader.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 05:55 PM
Post: #15
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Why do I feel like this thread is about me?

“Just leave me alone. I know what to do.”
"I'm only here for the racing. All the other bull$hit I can do without." - Kimi
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2011, 06:24 PM
Post: #16
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
are you under a safety car right now?

[Image: 29qbihk.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2011, 02:14 PM
Post: #17
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(12-07-2011 05:53 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  i never thought of that. it's certainly possible. do we want to artificially help the back markers keep up with the midfield? i suppose they'd be artificially distanced from the midfield if we didn't unlap them. i guess that's a no-win. i'm still more concerned with the treatment of the leader.

I'd say no, we shouldn't help the slower cars keep up, if they can't do it on their own they deserve to be lapped and be miles behind. Something like this with an opportune tyre change could have been the difference between 10th/11th/12th for Lotus/Virgin/HRT.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-09-2011, 01:10 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2011 01:12 PM by d3v0.)
Post: #18
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
If those cars dont have the pace, then what makes you think they would be able to keep a faster car behind them - especially with DRS? I can see your point maybe for a lap 70 Monaco safety car, but for most situations this is fine. The cars which should fall back will fall back. The sharp end of the pack likely lobbied for this to be changed, which is why it ends up being beneficial to them.

[Image: sennmansjere1986.jpg]
"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong.
- Murray Walker
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Post: #19
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
I'm in favor of letting the lapped traffic pass. It orders the cars by race distance completed without spacing them as such. Maybe its unfair that a driver has worked hard to lap cars during the race but oh well. Maybe it's unfair that the cars line up equally on the grid regardless of the gaps in qualifying times. But don't get too hung up on that last point, my main point is that cars should be arranged, but not spaced, by race distance competed.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Post: #20
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
The problem with it is it means a couple more laps of safety car to get themselves organised. They have to keep them in the pack while work is going on on the track and then release them after the track is clear.

Surely it would be better to make them fall back the pack by letting the cars on the lead lap pass a lapped car.

[Image: 29qbihk.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 03:25 PM
Post: #21
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
yeah, the timing problem is because they actually make the lapped cars go all the way around. if they would just let them fall back and then tick their timing and scoring forward a lap, it wouldn't take more than a minute to sort the whole field.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
Post: #22
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Ok logically that makes excellent sense and personally I'm in agreement. But many purists will have a problem in that the backmarkers will finish the race with less than race distance completed and that it is disrepectful to the sport and such.

Also, you have the problem of where the passing will take place, which will be a little chaotic because two lanes will be needed, and the location of the passing cannot be decided in advance like DRS zones because it will depend on the location of the crash. There are plenty of smart people who can orchestrate this, but it provides opportunity for confusion and potential danger which is a big hurdle.

Maybe towards the end of the SC period, after everyone has dived in and out of the pit lane, the lapped cars can enter the pit lane, line up and wait for the other cars to pass, then exit the pit lane in the order in which they came. That might take a lot of time though.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Post: #23
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(12-13-2011 03:54 PM)bmw85 Wrote:  Ok logically that makes excellent sense and personally I'm in agreement. But many purists will have a problem in that the backmarkers will finish the race with less than race distance completed and that it is disrepectful to the sport and such.

they're lapped traffic. they're not finishing the full race distance anyway.

(12-13-2011 03:54 PM)bmw85 Wrote:  Also, you have the problem of where the passing will take place, which will be a little chaotic because two lanes will be needed, and the location of the passing cannot be decided in advance like DRS zones because it will depend on the location of the crash. There are plenty of smart people who can orchestrate this, but it provides opportunity for confusion and potential danger which is a big hurdle.

they're behind the safety car. if they can't handle reshuffling safely under safety car, they're not good enough to be in f1. the only concern i would have is that they'd all have to stop their swerving about while it's going on.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 04:18 PM
Post: #24
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
(12-13-2011 04:00 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(12-13-2011 03:54 PM)bmw85 Wrote:  Ok logically that makes excellent sense and personally I'm in agreement. But many purists will have a problem in that the backmarkers will finish the race with less than race distance completed and that it is disrepectful to the sport and such.

they're lapped traffic. they're not finishing the full race distance anyway.

Only if they finish the race as backmarkers do they stop short of race distance. But during the race if a backmarker finds some pace you could have two cars battling it out which have done different distances, used different amounts of fuel, etc. Does it really matter? No, not IMO. I think this would still be less artificial than DRS, but still, people may disagree.

(12-13-2011 04:00 PM)frankdouglason Wrote:  
(12-13-2011 03:54 PM)bmw85 Wrote:  Also, you have the problem of where the passing will take place, which will be a little chaotic because two lanes will be needed, and the location of the passing cannot be decided in advance like DRS zones because it will depend on the location of the crash. There are plenty of smart people who can orchestrate this, but it provides opportunity for confusion and potential danger which is a big hurdle.

they're behind the safety car. if they can't handle reshuffling safely under safety car, they're not good enough to be in f1. the only concern i would have is that they'd all have to stop their swerving about while it's going on.

Yes it could be done pretty easily if they chose the longest straight (or second longest if the crash was on the longest) and said lead lap cars on the outside, lapped cars on the inside, no swerving. I think it could be done quickly enough that lead lap cars wouldn't suffer greatly in tire temp loss or engine overheating. Who was it that rearended the car in front on a formation lap or safety car restart a few years ago? Wasn't Kubica the victim?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Post: #25
RE: lapped traffic under safety car
Why not just send all the lapped cars through the pits when the pack is behind the safety car to shuffle them to the back, no chance of collision and all done quickly.

There would almost certainly be some sort of incident letting 20 cars past them on track.

I think Vettel rear ended Webber in the rain in Japan just before the re-start, either in 2007 or 2008 when he was at Torro Rosso.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  smart idea, Lola safety F1 concept tsarcasm 9 2,820 03-12-2010 05:55 AM
Last Post: Baumgartnerfan
  New Safety Car (inside) SLS AMG tsarcasm 8 2,189 03-03-2010 10:49 AM
Last Post: trickydicky
  FIA confirms new safety car rules Yaaay 6 1,553 01-28-2009 11:43 PM
Last Post: Buscabullas

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)